Scanning and Quoting for large projects with Matterport and BLK 360?9415
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AnthonyOptic private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Hello everyone. I have been using Matterport for a couple of years now, and looking to invest in the BLK 360 in order to scan externally(Which I haven't used yet). I have been asked to quote for quite a large project which is a cruise ship. I know I will only be able to get the desired effect with both technologies combined, but I am struggling to get an idea of how to quote for external spaces? With Matterport we use Square Footage, but how do you quote for large external spaces, like a Golf Course, a resort, or a ship etc? I am also trying to think how we would be able to scan the side of the ship, and get the scanner to reach those types of heights for the dollhouse view. I know obviously I will only be able to get half of the ship if its docked. Any advice on any of these subjects would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. |
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HarlanHambright private msg quote post Address this user | |
| You need to talk frankly with the powers that be to get an idea of what their budget is for such an undertaking. it could be that what they want to spend is far less than a minimum you'd even consider. huge jobs I negotiate a flat rate which is somewhere north of the minimum i'd be willing to do it for and somewhere south (or equal to) the maximum they would be willing to invest. or when they realize what all you have involved in the project that may expand their budget some. you could give them a ballpark based on sq ft or days just to establish a negotiating starting point. a ship should have lots of 3D out on deck and it's entirely possible the MP could handle it if you avoid bright sun times. i've had some pretty successful sunny scans of late, far exceeding what the system produced just a few months ago. maybe cortex is kicking in a little as a backup-I don't know. I did a late dusk scan monday evening where an exterior scan aligned nearly 20' away. I was shocked. I much prefer using the MP when possible as the BLK is so slow. | ||
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 WGAN ForumFounder & WGAN-TV Podcast Host Atlanta, Georgia |
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @AnthonyOptic What is the objective of the scan? For example: ✓ if it is to help sell cabins, then maybe you just need to do cabins and charge a flat fee per cabin. ✓ if it is for navigating the ship, perhaps the client already has CAD that could be converted to a 3D tour The use case will help determine the budget. Revenue generation counts way more than helping people walk around the ship. Once you know the use case, that will determine which tools are right for the project. Reminder that Matterport officially only supports 200 scans, so it is not obviously to me that scanning a cruise ship with Matterport + BLK360 is the right solution. Plus, one huge model of the ship – as cool as that vision might sound - likely would crash webGL. When you know all of the above, I could imagine quoting: 1. By the day 2. Fix fee for the entire project 3. Cost of Labor "times" 3 (1/3 cost, 1/3 overhead, 1/3 profit) 4. Cost of renting the gear to shoot the project 5. Hosting, Support and Maintenance 6. X per cabin 7. X for public space You might charge them $10,000 for a test and learn / proof of concept before quoting the entire project. Best, Dan P.S. If you buy a Leica BLK360 from Robotic Imaging Group (@MikeChawaga), you receive -- free -- the first 12 months of WGAN Standard Membership. You might consult with @MikeChawaga ... They use many different scanning technologies, depending on the project.  |
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jfantin private msg quote post Address this user | |
| In my opinion, no matter what factors you consider to establish your price, your quotation should be a fixed fee for the entire project, rather than x dollars per /day, sq ft or whathever variable you have taken into consideration. Yours is a very demanding project. By demanding I mean that it is not only a very large surface to be covered (large is not complex, it is just...large), but also the particular characteristics of the property, its uses and the needs of your customer that, I assume, go far beyond just showing a dollhouse view. As this is a single project, the person that will hire you will be more interested in knowing the total price, without entering into details like how much do you charge per sq ft or how much do you charge for renting a certain special equipment to support your job. Besides, when you start talking sq ft he will be tempted to challenge your per sqft price or asking to scan less surface. Stay focused on the complexity of the project, because it is complex, and always emphasize the fact that you are not just making a fancy 360 tour. Take into consideration that you will face several challenges (size, location, room height, large corridors with similar looking doors - need to scan closer or use april tags, etc, etc). Sometimes you will advance very slowly, it will be difficult to keep personel away from your shots (in a large boat there are always maintenance crews working everywhere) So, I would say that your first duty would be to establish how many days it will take you to finish this project. Then, determine what should be your salary per day (this is your cost, not your price!) Finally, the associated costs (renting special equipment, travel, hotel and food if this is far from home, etc, etc) and, of course, depreciation of your equipment, hosting, processing and any overhead cost you might have. With all your costs, you will have your negotiating base (nothing will be accepted below this line). Now it is time to estimate how much this project means to your customer. Is it just something that they want to show in their website like a 3D brochure, or is it something more (things that they will be able to do with Matterport that they will not do with another kind of image), like links for cabins' reservations? VR demonstrations at trade shows? Your price should be between your customer's maximum value perception (he will not pay a single penny about that line) and your cost (you will not accept nothing below that). Unfortunately there are no books or formulas to calculate this. Only experience and intuition. I hope this helps you to think about it. |
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 WGANStandard Member Cayman Islands |
Harrycayman private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Remember the BLk is four times price of pro 2 so keep that in Mind. It’s also scans slower o beleive 4 minutes for scan | ||
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AnthonyOptic private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Hello guys, Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to me. You have all made some very good points here, and there is certainly a lot to think about. It's for a company that is actually selling the ship either independently or through a brokerage. So the idea would be to almost create an online open house for all the potential buyers worldwide at a click of a button. I imagine that only photos and specification details have been used in the past. So it won't be as simple as creating separate tours or cabins or for just a walkthrough. Anyone looking to buy a ship, for the substantial amount of money I am guessing it is wants to see as many parts of the ship as possible before purchase including engine rooms, cabins, deck area, control rooms, canteens etc, so depending on the size of the ship. Hence why I wanted to scan the side of it, for buyers can see the ship in its entirety, well as much as what Matterport will allow. It maybe an idea to do the ship in two halves (even if that is possible), being cabins and areas that customers would see in one and the workings of the ship and the crew areas on the other. This is definitely more based around a visual reference than for any point cloud data. The reason I think the BLK 360 would be beneficial is that I can't rely on there being no bright sunshine, as we will have to travel to somewhere sunny for this project. I also can't rely on us being able to complete the task in time just by waiting for dusk, without spreading it over a few evenings which will of course raise the cost, therefore price so it would actually be more cost effective to use the BLK. Alignment issues is also a concern when completing a project over a few days. I do agree that offering one complete price is the way to go, for all of the points you all raised. It will be a bit of trial and error I think, which will be useful for if there are hopefully more jobs to follow from this one. If any of you have any suggestions of technology that is better suited, I would be interested to explore. I will message and speak to @MikeChawaga, thanks for the contact Dan. I would look to hire before purchase at this stage though. Thanks again for all of your advice. |
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WGAN Forum Founder & WGAN-TV Podcast Host Atlanta, Georgia |
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Cupix 3D Tour courtesy of Cupix WGAN-TV: Cupix SLAM App (iOS) Beta; Easier and Faster 360 Capture with Cupix Director of Sales Scott Anderson and Cupix Head of Product Paul Collart  Image 1: Capture 360º Photos with (or without) the new, soon-to-be-released-publicly Cupix SLAM App (iOS on launch) which will be compatible with five 360º 1-click cameras [Ricoh Theta V; Insta360 One X (January 2018); Panono (January 2018); Mi Sphere; MADV Madventure] | Image courtesy of Cupix WGAN-TV: CUPIX for Newbies and CUPIX versus Matterport with CUPIX Director of Sales Scott Anderson. Includes show and tell about the CUPIX Content Management System (Backend). WGAN-TV CUPIX Update-Videogrammetry, Animation, and Much More with CUPIX Director of Sales Scott Anderson  Image 2: The Cupix SLAM App (iOS) automatically tracks your camera route or path during capture. Camera can be mounted on a helmet; pole; or tripod mounted. (Cupix leverages the ARKit, the powerful iOS Augmented Reality library.) | Image courtesy of Cupix Anthony, Thank you for the additional backstory. It’s tremendously helpful for what I am about to say. Now I “get it” why a 3D models is a great use case for this project. Plus, the client (should be) willing to pay for this project because it is about getting the most offers for the most money as quickly as possible. Short Answer: ✓ Cupix is the right solution for this project. Longer Answer: Cupix is the right solution for this project because: 1. Speed of Capture – It’s likely that you could easily complete the shoot in 2-days: the time that it takes to walk every inch of the ship. I would budget five shoot days for re-shooting data in and around boilers and other hard to reach spaces. 2. Camera – With Cupix, you can use any 360º camera (to create a 3D model). I recommend the Ricoh Theta Z1 because of the quality of the images, affordability and you can take them as carry on luggage. (While you only need one, I would likely bring four (just in case). I would want to confirm with Cupix that the Ricoh Theta Z1 is compatible with the CUpix SLAM app. (Ricoh Theta V and Insta360 One X are supported.) 3. Multiple people scanning – I could imagine having two people do data capture at the same time. With Cupix, you can self-admin merging all scans into one model 4. Capture Technique – you could mount the Ricoh Theta Z1 on a helmet and simply walk the space using the Cupix SLAM app and the camera set to interval shooting. 5. Privacy – if your client needs the tour set to private, Cupix has a robust collaborator process 6. White-Label – Cupix offers a white label solution. This high visibility project will generate inbound leads to your Client to refer the work to you. 7. Cupix Team – Because this is an awesome project, I could imagine that Cupix would work closely with you (perhaps even engaging a Cupix team Member to be on your capture team). At the very least, you would find Cupix Head of Product Strategy Paul Collart (@pcollart) and Cupix Director of Sales Scott Anderson (@scott_CUPIX) highly responsive to helping you quote, capture and process this project. I recommend that you reach out to them immediately (holiday in the US). It’s likely that Paul could help you on the quote: particularly on “how many shoot days?” and guidance of best practices for capturing data (particularly above boilers. [Let me know if you would like an introduction to Cupix.] 8. Flights – since you are traveling to the destination, all your gear (laptop, cameras, helmut) could go as carry on. (This Eliminates two other very good options: NCTech iStar Pulsar backpack set and NavVis Trolley.) [Let me know if you would like introductions to NCTech or NavVis.] 9. Google Street View – if the model can be public, in addition to using the Cupix player to show the 3D Tour, I would encourage you to include publishing to Google Street View. It’s likely that this could be leveraged as a publicity generator for the sale of the ship and an interesting use-case for Google Street View. 10. BIM model – the use case requirements does not mention comparing the existing “as built” to the BIM for the ship, there may be an opportunity for you for a second sale of the data captured to the buyer of the ship. When you do your quote, I encourage you to license – not sell – the solution to your client so that you have the potential to make more money licensing both the walkaround experience and data captured (for CAD modeling by the ships buyer). All doable with Cupix. All WGAN Forum discussions tagged: Cupix Because you likely could complete the data capture in two days – and budget for five days – it’s super-likely that this project would be affordable for your client and highly profitable for you. Please let us know how you end up quoting the project; when you get the project and, if possible, share the 3D model with us once public. Special Offer for WGAN Standard and Premium Members FREE! First six months of Cupix Small Plan + Studio Add On Pack (Publish to Google Street View), if you are a We Get Around Network Standard or Premium Member. To receive this WGAN Standard and Premium Membership benefit, please see the We Get Around Cupix Small Plan + Studio Add On Pack Offer Order Form in the Welcome Onboard Letter. Not Yet a WGAN Standard Member? www.JoinStandard.com | Compare WGAN Membership Plans | Member Benefits Best, Dan P.S. WGAN Basic, Standard and Premium Members can Borrow These 360º 1-Click Cameras ... WGAN-TV: Cupix SLAM App (iOS) Beta; Easier and Faster 360 Capture with Cupix Director of Sales Scott Anderson and Cupix Head of Product Paul Collart Video: WGAN-TV Cupix SLAM App Short Story #331-Demo Part 1 of 6 Video: WGAN-TV Cupix SLAM App Short Story #332-Demo Continuation Part 2 of 6 Video: WGAN-TV Cupix SLAM App Short Story #333-Video Presentation and Demo Part 3 of 6 WGAN-TV Cupix SLAM App Short Story #334-Video Presentation and Demo Part 4 of 6 Video: WGAN-TV Cupix SLAM App Short Story #335-Video Presentation and Demo Part 5 of 6 WGAN-TV CUPIX White-Label 3D Tour Player Solution with CUPIX Director of Sales Scott Anderson WGAN-TV How to Build a 3D CAD Model within Cupix; with Cupix Director of Sales Scott Anderson and Cupix Head of Product Paul Collart. Special thanks to Coquitlam BC-based Matterport Service Provider West Coast Measuring Principal Tim Horner for insightful questions and observations.  Image 1: Cupix 3D Tour (360º Survey) is generated automatically from any source of 360º photos. [Alignment precision (accuracy) 1 percent with helmet mounted capture (meaning accuracy is 1 foot over 100 feet). Build 3D CAD Model within Cupix 3D CAD System. Within the CUPIX platform lives a complete 3D CAD modeling system made specifically to transform a Cupix 3D Tour (360º Survey) into a 3D CAD Model. | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 2: Precise Measurements can be extracted from Cupix 3D Tour (360ª Survey) to set windows; doors; and other openings quickly, accurately and easily. | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 3: The Cupix 3D Mesh can be helpful during the modeling process especially in complex buildings. | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 4: Once completed the model can be exported in 2D and 3D Formats | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 5: Import the Cupix 3D CAD model for use in a variety of CAD Systems file formats including: .DFX, .IFC, .PNG [Direct RVT export from Cupix not supported. IFC is the supported 3D format. Import from Cupix as IFC allows import into Revit, Navisworks, Sketchup and other CAD Packages.] | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 6: Open the Cupix CAD Model in programs like Revit; NavisWorks; and SketchUp for 3D Design; 3D Management; or 3D Analysis. | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 7: Open the Cupix CAD Model in programs such as: Revit, NavisWorks, SketchUp for 3D Design, 3D Management or 3D Analysis. Pictured in this image is the file from Cupix file working in Revit. Simply open the Cupix result directly in Revit. The format imported into Revit is an IFC file. This is common file exchange format.| Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 8: Other uses of the Cupix 3D Model include: construction progress by comparing the CUPIX CAD Model to other Cupix Tours (360º Surveys) directly within Cupix | Image courtesy of Cupix  Image 9: Add 3D Pins and 3D Tags on the Cupix CAD Model for issue tracking or or asset management. | Image courtesy of Cupix Using panoramic video instead of photos the capture speed can increase by 50% - 100% faster.  This was again covered in some depth in this WGAN-TV episode. |
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AnthonyOptic private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Hello Dan, Thank you for taking the time to introduce me to Cupix and for your detailed response, sorry for the delay in my reply but I have been away for the bank holiday weekend. I have to say you have made an extremely good argument for why Cupix would indeed be better, as far as time scales and size of the project there most definitely is a clear winner here. I don't quite like the navigation in Cupix as much as Matterport, and for some reason on the example you have shown me (and the few others I have checked out), even though quite a small space, I seem to get a second or two lag in-between each point and take a while to focus? It makes me wonder if there would be a lot more lag on much larger projects. The navigation definitely reminds me more of and newer and improved Google 360 tour. The issue I know have is that the client has seen my previous demonstrations of Matterport, and perhaps one of the biggest reasons is for the 3D effect, even though perhaps doesn't add any extra benefit to what they need it for, I suppose the only way would be to price up the project with both technologies as long as the ship isn't to big to do with Matterport in the first place. I will however do as much research as I can regarding Cupix, which I will spend the next half day doing. It does strike me as a pretty good alternative to introduce to all of our other practices too as a cheaper/time saving option. I was actually pretty close to buying an Insta360 One in any case. I do really like how you can just place video into the space, along with text. Does Matterport have the patent on 3D rendering and the dollhouse effect, because it seems to be me, that given what Cupix can do, they could actually achieve the same results? Thanks again for your time, it certainly is something I am now considering. |
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WGAN Forum Founder & WGAN-TV Podcast Host Atlanta, Georgia |
DanSmigrod private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @AnthonyOptic I recommend that you reach out to Cupix Director of Sales Scott Anderson (@scott_CUPIX) about your project.   Screen Grabs. This Matterport Support page was last updated 10 April 2019. "Models larger than *200 scans are not supported ..." Quote: Originally Posted by AnthonyOptic GeoCV offers a dollhouse view, but Matterport filed a lawsuit against GeoCV for patent infringement. I do not know if one of the patents involves the dollhouse view. Please let us know what happens with your potential project. Best, Dan |
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