Video: Shop Talk 45: How and why DCMS integrates Matterport into their AEC asset workflow | Video courtesy of Matterport YouTube Channel | 2 February 2023

From the Matterport YouTube Channel:

As firm believers that every detail matters when you’re remodeling a building, Data Collection Modeling Services (DCMS) helps its retail and real estate developer clients make faster, more informed decisions. In [Matterport] Shop Talk 45, we sat down with Alberto Palomino, principal at DCMS, to look at how they’ve grown by providing the tools to be more efficient and assets that help bring their clients along through the redesign process. Learn how the DCMS team integrates Matterport into their workflow to not only improve their relationship with the client but also radically increase efficiency and collaboration efforts.

Source: Matterport YouTube Channel


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Host: Matterport Senior Evangelist Amir Frank
Guest: DCMS Principal Alberto Palomino

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Transcript (video above)

[00:00:02]
Amir Frank: Thank you very much again for joining us. Today, we are joined by Alberto, so I'm very curious to know how he's using that report, how he got Matterport, his company, to where it is today, and in everything, how it's used, how it's being used, and what kind of problem he's using it to solve. So welcome, Alberto. Thank you very, very much for joining us.

[00:00:31]
Alberto Palomino: Yes Amir, I'm very happy to be here. Always good to talk about what we're doing. It gives us a chance to reflect on where we are, where we want to pose, where we want to go, so I'm very happy to share the DCMS story with everyone here.

[00:00:50]
Amir Frank: About the DCMS, tell me a little bit more about that. You guys got started, how long ago?

[00:00:58]
Alberto Palomino: Just a few years ago, actually in 2019, before the pandemic and the best time to open a business. We made it through the pandemic. DCMS actually stands for data capture and modeling services. I want to call it this DCMS network. It's based on what I thought. I've been in the industry for a few years, maybe 15 years now. When we built it, we were trying to tailor it to what the

actual clients are always looking for, like expediency, affordability and expertise, speed, the resources, things that matter a lot in the AEC industry, which is a fast-paced industry. You always have to be on the goal. You have to be flexible. You have to adapt to different situations, so it's been three very busy years. We're very happy that, well, DCMS is growing and that the pandemic is over and we can feel

that the market is bouncing back. There's a lot of interest in data capture technologies in Matterport and we can see it growing in many different industries, so we feel very blessed to be at this position in time building this new industry, which is growing quite fast.

[00:02:19]
Amir Frank: You started out as an architect. Is that right?

[00:02:23]
Alberto Palomino: Yeah, I have architectural training, a background in architecture. I did architecture for a while, and then I did a master's in business administration. Then I moved to work in the data collection industry for the last 15 years. You get I say that 15 years ago it was in its infancy. There were different tools that had the same problems, but we had to be very creative. You can do how to deal

with them, how to take equipment and make it work. Because we're now thinking about the past. We were inventing processes as we went through rather, it's been a very interesting decade.

[00:03:08]
Amir Frank: How is data collection done prior to matterport?

[00:03:11]
Alberto Palomino: Before matterport showed up in the market, it was mainly manual with some help of handheld devices. We needed to digitize buildings right they are one way or the other for transactions, renovations. We had to adapt the cat technologies to on-site needs, and when the lidar scanners, the Matterport started to come up to the market, it took a little of time to really grasp on what

What can we do with them? But at that point in time, we were building, let's say, telescopic arms for scanners and tying them up with tape, whatever we've got, just to take advantage of those new technologies, so it was a slow migration, let's say between 2014-2018, when we started to explore, all these new tools that make it easier to capture. What we have noticed is that the tools get better and better. Whereas

resolution or price or the speed, what remains the fact is it's the person behind the machine that actually makes a difference. It's a know-how on how to proceed, how to address different circumstances, and how to actually deliver what we need to deliver. Everyone in this industry knows that whenever we head into a building, we don't really know how the building is set up inside. We have

to deal with weather conditions, lighting conditions, too much heat, too less heat, changes in the scope, so it's a very exciting industry because it forces you to be on your feet. Very dynamic build processes that can be addressed to different situations, different scenarios. That's why we actually use a lot of
Matterport because I think Matterport, it's maybe one of the most adaptable tools in the market right

now. It's really easy to configure, it's really easy to transport to use in different types of projects. One of our biggest projects that was very early in DCMS was across Canada, doing curtain walls for promotional intent. We had to use the Matterport in winter, in January and February, in Canada outside. We knew that Matterport hacks them now whether resistance limits, so we had to make sure that we

needed to capture the morning or at night in certain temperatures. Luckily for us, we were able to complete those 70-something stores in less than six weeks. In winter, it was like an Indiana Jones deal, and we relied 90% on Matterport just to do that.

[00:06:16]
Amir Frank: You primarily use Matterport to take the measurements; is that right?

[00:06:19]
Alberto Palomino: Yeah. We use the Matterport to capture the measurements of the curtain walls. Then we don't load it as a matter of packs and we created these cool PDF sets of elevations like a very smart or stupid PDF, but it was a very simple document that our clients could use to design different promotional campaigns, so everything is started in Matterport on the side. Then we got the matter

packs, and our team in Peru would draft deliberations with icons and hyperlinks connecting to the virtual visit. It was a very smart way of doing it, low-resource, low-tech way, and it came out pretty good. It was maybe the first big contract that we got. I was pretty proud of what we were able to do in such a short amount of time and relying on Matterport. They never broke. We were able to do them all. We had

contingencies, but the project went through very well. The client was very happy. My modeling team was happy with the packs, the amount of precision we needed to get. Ever since we've been using Matterport regularly, like today, we're working on projects with Matterport that are going to be tomorrow.

[00:07:38]
Amir Frank: Yeah. So that was like the test run?

[00:07:40]
Alberto Palomino: Yeah. It wasn't a tough test run, I would say, because we jumped again into a situation that changed with time, the deadline remained at the same place. Whereas the beginning of the project with every day would shorten. I remember when we began New Year's Eve, we used to do something crazy. We started because we had like two months to close it up. We managed to do it. We had

several teams in parallel running at different stores in. It was coast to coast from Victoria all the way to elaboration, like extremely distant weather conditions were nasty. The deliverables were still changing. We're still designing them, so it was not only a test for Matterport, but a test for the DCMS on how we can adapt, and I can keep the ball rolling.

[00:08:37]
Amir Frank: What would you say the advantage was to using something like Matterport in that environment because you're not even scanning the entire interior, you're just scanning more of just the storefront?

[00:08:49]
Alberto Palomino: The advantage was the fact that the Matterport learning curve is perhaps the shortest in the market right now. It's very easy to manipulate. The software helps you out as you go. Because sometimes when you use other lighter equipment, you don't get a notification from the software, whether you're capturing or not, you have to rely on some hazy possibility that your data

might be right or wrong. With Matterport, we had always the control that whenever we weren't, Zac knew exactly what we were capturing and what would the team receive to draft. This window displays. That was a big advantage. The fact that we were able to rely on multiple team members and have a consistent deliverable. Because we decided we're going to go with Matterport. We don't need a lot of


time on the side that we need to be flexible. We need to be very flexible because it might snow, it might be a little wind. We need to structure the project in a consistent way. In our industry, one of the pitfalls is getting different datasets, and then asking your team in the background that doesn't have the ability to see their facility to figure it out. That's something very important that we look in our company is

submitting a consistent data set. The people in the background are able to produce confidently what they're demanded to do.

[00:10:20]
Amir Frank: Having that visual reference onsite and your mobile, if you're using iPad or tablet, Android, iPhone, iOS or Android tablet or phone, having that can emit that mini-map of what it is that

you're capturing on-site right then and there live, you're saying is a huge advantage and what the team and the backend is going to receive.

[00:10:43]
Alberto Palomino: Refugee situations where the technicians would have to hold for confirmation and we would use the Tablet through cell phones to make sure that yes, that window is included in the scope. That happens a lot and we also use it for the client. Actually, when we deliver our PDFs, we have hyperlinks that will take the client to the virtual visit. The clients finished up using the

virtual visit as well. Because whenever they're designing, let's say, some valentines campaign, they need to see the whole thing. They need to see what other objects are within the store. Where's the best place to put the decals? I would say that Matterport gave us that ability to help us to speed up operations and get the agility that we needed at that point in time. But also it remained for the

client while the design and development of these decals to use a very important reference as a visual reference. The thing with Matterport is that the imagery, it's regular imagery. When you're dealing with lighter, which is a bit more precise, but the imagery is grainy, it is not very crisp. For clients, you cannot ask a client to open a lighter data set of 20 gigabytes. They're never going to do it. They can't do it.


They're not built for that. But the Matterport hyperlinks, everyone had a PC or a cell phone. They were all able to access the data when they needed it on time. That's how a project runs.

[00:12:21]
Amir Frank: To bring the client along the journey so that they're kept up to date and then feel comfortable with their investment.

[00:12:28]
Alberto Palomino: That is for other contracts because they realized the ability of running cost-to-cost projects from Toronto. From a hub of technicians in Toronto, they were able to actually visit every store without moving from their offices. That made him click. This was like an epiphany or for what they could do. They started asking us to use the same technology for other projects. That's what

We live because we know we have really good tools, but the client is not used to it. It's very hard at the beginning to tell the client a better way. We have these right now, it's super-smart, and is going to save you a lot of time, a lot of headaches. But it's always the resistance of doing things differently at the beginning of the article. But once they go through this and they actually leave it, I think it's a victory, like

we're talking to you today. We also did last year's big campaign for the school board in Ontario. A whole beard included a ladder, a virtual visit and drone footage, and a lot of plans. But what did stick throughout time, it was the Matterport virtual visits. Those virtual visits changed drastically how they would run operations. They will have, let's say, 15 different schools with a range of six hours between

them. They will need to send, let's say electricians to one school just to change light bulbs. But then with the Matterport, they're able, well, first to see what's the path to get to that, then measure with what a light bulb it is, replanted out. They weren't expecting to lag it because the Matterport was one of the many deliverables. But at the end, it's what I can tell you with a polygraph, if you want. These people

are just they can have more of it than it. Well, I think one-day Matterport was down for like one hour or something like that. I got a call immediately from WhatsApp with my visit checked and it was just one internal initiative. We've changed. But I can tell that they're used a lot. McGill University also uses it a lot. This came through with the pandemic. Because they were trying to limit people to go into
buildings, or how do we keep people away from buildings as much as we can to avoid any risks. What they started doing is every bid, for whatever reason, it is changing mechanical systems or changing furniture. Instead of inviting all the bidders to the typical visit, they would call us to do a virtual visit and then it would post it on the bid documents so everyone was fair game. Everyone had the same

thing to visit the space. Now it has become the norm. Eventually, things become the norm. That's what's cool about this standard we're living is that we're migrating, we're changing norms. And every single client is a small victory towards new ways of management.

[00:15:46]
Amir Frank: Absolutely, using it, not only to initiate, kick-start the project, when you're creating that as-built with your team, you're using Matterport to get all those measurements like you were saying with the storefronts. But your clients are using it for collaboration so they don't have to travel six hours without really knowing what we're going to see and what they're going to need to do. This way, they can

really have a much better sense of planning out.

[00:16:15]
Alberto Palomino: It's our job and business-wise. It's an excellent idea because it helps you retain your clients, and is a retention strategy. When we host a virtual basis, we're very generous with our fees because it helps us keep our clients close. It helps us keep the communication flowing. For example with these particular school commissioner we did many after that because they were driving so much

that we're recommending other combinations. But with this one, we kept ongoing communications and now they have given us another contract to do, but this contract is to do client's architectural plans, but it helps us remain relevant to the client. It's a really good way of keeping a client close to you. Business-wise, it's very smart as well.

[00:17:05]
Amir Frank: I just want to take a quick second and look at one of the stores that you have scanned. This is a store, it looks like a store in the mall. Can you tell me about this?

[00:17:16]
Alberto Palomino: I remember that one very well. Las Vegas is like a normal store.

[00:17:24]
Amir Frank: This is a very good example of what we do. What we do is how the industry works, because a client was an architectural firm from Miami. We've been working for them for a while and they have a very strong positioning in high-end retail. We started working with them locally in Miami using Matterport virtual tours and they started to incorporate it into the regular practices. Everyone here

knows that we got a call and they tell us we have this project in Las Vegas. We need to do it yesterday. Something like that. It's always like that. They didn't even have the time to send somebody. It's often very much like that. Luckily, we had a field technician that was able to go the next day. The very next day, I was discussing the terms. Let's see, on a Tuesday afternoon, we had somebody on the store the

the next day by 10:00 AM. By 4:00 PM, more or less, the client had already had the virtual visit. That's a turnaround of 24 hours to get food on the ground without moving anybody through customs or airplanes. We were able to deliver the virtual visit within one day. Then it took us a week to create out of the matter pack, to create the deliverables that we typically do for them. These companies, retail

oriented company. They work a lot with the frontage of the store. They really need to design a new style. The interior elevations are super-important and obviously, that's where they do the magic, then the reflected ceiling where they were, how the lighting plays, the floor plans. That's what we deliver. We hurried up with a Matterport so they can have a visual as fast as possible of how the space is.

Take some measurements, make sure that the furniture they had designed for other stores will fit here more or less, and then proceed with the US builds. It's a very fast paced business industry, but thanks to Matterport, because of Matterport, we all know it's going to take less than half an hour to do something like this.

[00:19:48]
Alberto Palomino: This is a pretty relatively small space.

[00:19:51]
Amir Frank: That's a 1,500 square fit retail location, most retail locations are under 2,500 square fit. These are small mall locations. Matterport is a very good tool for these types of projects because we can have functional intervention, so we can have larger deployments, with different locations.

[00:20:14]
Alberto Palomino: Just wanted to point out for anybody looking to scan anything like this, the things to keep in mind as a technician out there scanning, what's the purpose? What is this going to be used for? What is the digital twin or the model? What's its use? If the case is like with GCMS, you want the

storefront. Obviously, you got to include some scan positions out here. Obviously, this isn't for promotional purposes. This is to take the measurements and create an as-built out of. We'll see that in a second. I've got a nice video for you. The fact that sometimes you'd have people in the shot, it doesn't really matter because they're not using this for that purpose. As long as you get all the angles, all the walls,

everything scanned and captured. As far as you're capturing millions of measurements in a matter of 30 minutes as opposed to much longer, I'm guessing. Let's just take a quick look at this video that you put together.

[00:21:17]
Amir Frank: In this video, we have the full set of deliverables, but that's a good point that these virtual visits were architecturally intense. It was not for marketing. Time was of the essence and we had to jump in easily.

[00:21:32]
Alberto Palomino: You can see the type of assets that you can get from just capturing using the Matterport to get all the measurements. You're creating blueprints out of it. You're getting the front side, the backside. Those elevation plans?

[00:21:52]
Amir Frank: Exactly. When we draft either a 3D or 2D, there are some limitations that we do. We're going to draft architectural, mechanical, and [inaudible 00:22:01] unfair systems. The client doesn't really know how far they need to go with the modeling per se, but we tell them all the time you know this just do the very basics. You're not sure if you want the mechanical system model from the Matterport. We can always do it later. The thing is that with the visuals we were able to include, let's say at a later stage the mechanical systems or the furniture or the lighting, but it's there. It's sitting there on your server, for anybody to use.

[00:22:37]
Alberto Palomino: Exactly. Once you've got that information captured, then you can always develop and create those assets as needed. That was nice. You really were able to create a true as-built, drop it in Revit or something like that, then AutoCad and provide that to the architect so that they can redesign this.

[00:23:01]
Amir Frank: That was exactly what we do. It becomes just a reflex that we do Rivets than we do experts in AutoCad. We do the elevations to, let's say LOB 300. If they want to get crazy down the line with the modeling, they have the pack, they have the virtual visits. They also use it to coordinate with their own clients. When I'm hosting a Matterport virtual visit, there's a lot of people that benefit from this

indirectly. I don't have any control, but it's there. It's there for that. It helps a lot.

[00:23:43]
Alberto Palomino: Let's look at a slightly larger hotel. This is in Miami.

[00:23:56]
Alberto Palomino: This is the National Hotel in South Florida. It's a beautiful, historic hotel with a lot of users behind it. This was a project we did for another Florida architect. We started with him now with this Nashville's and eventually, we started using Matterport for his houses and he liked it. He said you know what? That helped a lot. Why don't we do more of this? We had this project that the National

We use Matterport. We used Matterport to capture it because we were going to hit the lobby first. We were going to do one floor afterwards. We had the ability to visit multiple times because his contract also grew with time. Initially it was a lobby, then they started asking him to remodel the other floors. Again, this is a slightly larger project, but everything that we see here, we model it based of a

Matterport packs at different stages. It's for renovation purposes. Most of our work is for renovation purposes.

[00:25:11]
Alberto Palomino: There's a lot of changes now in the hotel industry, there's a lot of architects trying to convert hotels into residential towers. That's a very big business opportunity for people like us. There's a lot of real estate that needs to shift directions because it's way cheaper. We get a lot of calls about the hotels. We want to change this hotel, we want to know if we can change it. It's a booming

industry. I would say that by now after the pandemic we've gone through the wars in terms of adaptation, let's say to Matterport virtual tools. I don't see anymore people freaking out or how do I get inside here? It's very intuitive. Five years ago some people would say just send me pictures man, I just want to see pictures. But now everyone is accustomed to running it on their phones and their computers. I

I think the worst is behind in terms of adoption. Now it's a matter of keeping the growth forward.

[00:26:19]
Amir Frank: For maybe some people who come in from a photography background and just a scan tech background, just give them an idea of what the use is. When you're talking about as-built, we're talking about taking an existing structure, scanning it, digitizing that. You're basically creating this digital

twin of the physical space so that the architect can then go and do their job. They need that model in the computer.

[00:26:51]
Alberto Palomino: There are some architects that won't even touch a project if they don't have proper as-builds. As-builds are extremely important for a renovation project because you could be wasting a lot of time. Architects actually are building owners. They have realized that by now that
without proper as-build architectural fees are very difficult to calculate. It's always step before engaging

or at the very beginning of the engagement of an architectural firm to make sure that the as-builds are properly done. What happens with buildings is that along the years since its inception construction documentation has rarely been kept relevant. There's additions, renovations. In terms of operations there's a big opportunity for people like us because most of the buildings that you see around, they are

undocumented. They're really badly kept in terms of digital documentation or even blueprints. They don't have the full set of blueprints. Sometimes it's even cheaper to send people on site and faster than to go into those basements and start figuring out whether these plants are relevant or not. Given these technologies right now that we can spend one single day in a building and really capture everything that's to capture, that's a no brainer.

[00:28:19]
Amir Frank: The original blueprints are pretty much not going to do you any good even if you could get a hold of them because more than likely you're renovating a building that's more than two to three years old which means it's definitely gone through some kind of correction, adjustment to renovation between now and then.

[00:28:39]
Amir Frank: You can't rely on the blueprints to be what the building is today. You need an as-build.

[00:28:43]
Alberto Palomino: At the very beginning of my career just to try and help my clients save some money I would tell them, hey, let's look at the plans that we have. But after 15 years of experience I can tell you now with certainty that the best thing you can do and sounds crappy because it sounds like you

are not reusing resources but if you look at the lump sum cost fallacy, the best thing you could do is to start from scratch. It's faster, it's cheaper, and it's better quality. That's what I recommend. I have a project now in Mexico and Baja, California. We agreed that at the end we're going to send people on site because it's a mess. The paper, it's a mess. It's just more affordable to send people quickly on site.

The other industry that's very interesting for people listening to the podcast is the retail industry, not necessarily architecture but retail like I mentioned at the beginning. Just servicing the retail industry in terms of signage, in terms of pictures, and placement. Because the retail industry is one that shifts a lot. When you build a building, let's say an office building you're not going to touch it for the next 10 years. An office
space. But a retail location every 2, 3 years there are ongoing renovations to remain relevant, the usage, it's harder so the buildings get used faster. The retail industry, it's a very good market for companies like ours to try and help them run these different promotional campaigns, different product placement that is growing as well very much. The advantage of the retailers is that they require different

skills that they are not that concerned about, say beings versus ventilation ducts. They just want general representations. Our new let's say line of spring 2023 is going to be this type of furniture. How do we place it? How do we place that in our space? How do we keep making money out of retail locations that cost a lot?

[00:30:54]
Amir Frank: When you say retail you're talking about just like the window, what you were saying earlier, to get measurements for a display case.

[00:31:04]
Amir Frank: Furniture stores inside.

[00:31:07]
Alberto Palomino: The rags, the gondolas, wherever they put products. This is beyond architecture. Because it's funny that it took me a while to realize that the actual importance of building is the activity happening inside, is what is being used to. You have your architectural or mechanical, a shoe box. But what's happening inside is what makes them make money to pay the rent of the employees. In the

The original case is moving products. Right now we're working with Under Armour. They have a campaign renovating their stores. We are exclusively addressing their locations inside projects and how the furniture is placed, the mannequins are placed. It's all been done with Matterport because again, we cannot spend too much time on site. They need visuals because it's a bit of understanding the space to

place new furniture or to change the style of the store or the sales location. They have a bunch of stores across Canada. We have come out with a nice deliverable that resembles a lot the one we did for the window displays and is based in Matterport at the very beginning to the data capture. The Matterport is used as well at the very end for the end-user to make decisions how they're going to

design that the new location, let's say Under Armour 2024 style, it's going to be what kind of furniture they're going to use. That's a very big industry.

[00:32:44]
Amir Frank: Under Armour is obviously a huge brand. Are you talking about larger brands using Matterport or even the smaller mom-and-pop retail stores?

[00:32:53]
Alberto Palomino: Well, we've used I think both because the Under Armour's of the world, they're using it and they see advantage because they have a centralized management system. This is like a pyramid. A group of people to make a lot of decisions. The more compact to people it is the better it's going to be. You need to drive data to the unstructured data for them to make decisions from multiple

locations. These guys are managing 150 stores. For them the number of stores is 1050. They don't have the locality ability to identify, so to manage a lot of stores they need to work it like that. They do
benefit a lot from Matterport in terms of how they need to remain centralized. But the mom-and-pop stores, for example we did some grocery stores like apps and upscale grocery stores. They had a few

locations. They would also take a lot of advantage of the Matterport in terms of how their product is placed, they identified a lot of problems with certain stores that they weren't following the proper intent of the store. Why do they both benefit? I think it's because of the adaptability of the tool. The tool is very adaptable, and is very affordable. To have one single store visit it, it is very affordable with Matterport. To

have many, it's even more affordable. If you were to do that with let's say you have a big range laser scanner then you have the cost obstacle at the very beginning that cannot stop you from implementing that on smaller scale projects where there are no fans or no need to have such overkill equipment onsite. Why I like the most of what Matterport is, frankly it resembles a lot of me. It's very flexible. It's a

very flexible tool. It knows how to adapt to different scenarios and it's quick. It's quick as hell. You get all the visuals. They're there sitting on my phone. The minute there's a problem with the store I can just open it and look at it. I don't need to open my server. It's there for everyone to see.

[00:35:12]
Amir Frank: I like what you're saying, the visuals are a great asset to have, those high def, good resolution 2D images so that you can bring that client along so they can visually see what's happening.

[00:35:28]
Alberto Palomino: Something else that is very useful.

[00:35:33]
Alberto Palomino: When you are in Matterport, you can name the rooms. For example, for McGill University, they have huge buildings. Like in men's buildings, all the rooms are named RP/1045.

[00:35:53]
Alberto Palomino: Whenever they bring, let's say, plumbers or electricians and you send them to that campus and say, "Hey guys, you get to change the labels at room OR wherever" the guy is going to spend half a day just looking for it.

[00:36:06]
Amir Frank: Just looking.

[00:36:07]
Alberto Palomino: That's what happens. Nobody is going to help him. The guy is on his own. He's going to bill you after work, three hours because I was wondering.

[00:36:14]
Amir Frank: Because it took him two-and-a-half hours just to find the place.

[00:36:17]
Alberto Palomino: Just to find it, not even change the ball just to find it. What we started doing with McGill, this is a few years back and they really appreciate it, it's using that Matterport tool to put nomenclatures of the rooms.

[00:36:33]
Amir Frank: Using the labels that's actually a really good idea. It's not just used in Real Estate, say kitchen and living room and bedroom, but in this example, it's perfect. You don't have to spend so much time walking around the facility looking for it. Once everything is labeled you can actually just use the search feature, look up exactly the room that needs whatever attention and then find it. It's pointed out

right there for you.

[00:36:58]
Alberto Palomino: These are big buildings. I'm talking about the 150,000 square foot building. You have massive floor plates with little rooms, labs, and stuff like that. It's hell. You would think that the trades are not as technical. People look like no other trace it and use it, but the traits of the one preferring. They actually go. Like you said, they're going to do the search feature. They are going to find

the room, whether they overbuild the client I cannot control that, but they have the ability to make it faster on site.

[00:37:31]
Amir Frank: That's great.

[00:37:31]
Alberto Palomino: That is very helpful.

[00:37:33]
Amir Frank: I do want to get to some questions. We've got a whole bunch of questions coming in. This is great. Thank you all very much for that. First question, are using the Pro 3 camera to capture external point Cloud data and is this external data included in the Matterport? [inaudible 00:37:51] data wouldn't be included in the Matterport. The Matterport is mostly just the point cloud and mesh file. But

Are you using the Pro 3?

[00:38:01]
Alberto Palomino: Right now we're running most of our campaigns with the Pro 2. The Pro 2 is quite reliable for us. We wanted to get the Pro 3 last year when it came out, but we were running well with the Pro 2. We expect Antonio and I that this year we're going to get a couple of Pro 3s, mostly because of the lighter compounds. The lighter that interest is because big segment of our work is lighter

and that tolerance of two meals or five meals, it's something that some clients really appreciate. Definitely this year we're going to move up into the Pro 2.

[00:38:44]
Amir Frank: Very nice. Lance asks, what is the largest difference between the Pro 2 and the Leica? Matterport does support Leica BLK360 versions of cameras in the depth of a LiDAR scanning or the quality of the picture. I can tell you from my experience, the quality of the 2D image is definitely going to be better with the Pro 2. The Leica is just not designed for that. That's not why those RGB sensors

were put there for high-def images. The project is going to be better at that, but the Leica is definitely better in terms of its measurement accuracy. It is using different technologies lasers versus structured IR light. You get a much longer range and higher quality in terms of the measurement accuracy. Alberto, do you guys use the Leica BLK, or do you use the higher-end laser scanners?

[00:39:33]
Alberto Palomino: We have used the BLK, but in terms of LiDAR, the two that we rely the most on is the RTC360, which I know we're not here to talk about that equipment, but it's extremely powerful. But again, it's way different budget and still the image is not the same. We're going to be assigning projects for the RTC, for big open spaces, tunnels, exteriors. This is where we will have time because the

tolerance requires us so, and when we have we can move long distances, let's say 30 feet apart, do scans. That tool is also a very good tool for big spaces. But in most situations, while in New York in Miami, even in Toronto, we're going to be using a combination of both. Because what happens is that LiDAR scans are very heavy. Most of our business is creating geometry out of these virtual visits or

scans. We have to make sure that the field technician produces a data set that the cat ignition back in Peru is going to be able to work with comfortably because he doesn't have the benefit of being on site to understand because being onsite gives you a sense of understanding that you cannot get otherwise. You need to have that spatial component to understand the space, and understanding it's before even

modeling. In some projects we're going to be using both. We're going to be using fuel ignition running with the RTC and somebody else in [inaudible 00:41:16] running with the Matterport. Why? Because when I think about my modeling texts they had two strings and one string, they have the virtual visits so they can understand the scope of works include the fire system, so they can see them in the Matterport

way quickly, understand what are the complications with that system because there's always obstacles that don't let you see everything. Then you're going to have the LiDAR data on the side with a higher tolerance which is going to help them model. But personally, I find that the combination of both tools it's the best way for us to produce reliable geometry. It's because the human brain works. You have to

understand some. You have to understand how a building works. You cannot ask someone to model out of quality or grayscale space. It's putting the onions on somebody that doesn't have as many resources to solve the problem. Under Matterport is so fast, and budget-wise works very well that I'm always convincing my clients to have a complete dataset. It's going to save us a lot of time on the line.

[00:42:34]
Amir Frank: You do the interior with both. You're not just doing the exterior with the RTC and interior with Matterport, you're doing everything with both cameras?

[00:42:43]
Alberto Palomino: I'm going to have those two parallel data. Given the exterior we're going to be doing 360 images with a Matterport. People tend to neglect images, but images are extremely important for understanding contrast between objects and just a sense of understanding space it's half the battle. Just somebody being able to understand the space. I will choose understanding over

tolerance because with understanding, you can rely on human ability to adapt or to guess what the building is built like this. In the past we would do photographic records very pristine, but because from early on we understood that the images are essential for understanding. That's what I liked the most out of Matterport, actually the images that help you understand the speech quickly.

[00:43:41]
Amir Frank: You can have the measurement accuracy from something like the RTC, but with the image in 2D quality of the Matterport. But like you said, it is not cost-prohibitive. It's very inexpensive and very fast to go through the model.

[00:43:55]
Alberto Palomino: Every time it's going to have a victory. We have a rational time Amir. We are so rushed on time because we received this and you have engineers, architects just on your door. But we're going to do the Matterport first, well let's say in parallel or we're going to submit the Matterport while the lighter is still going because the lighter process is a different workflow. You need somebody in the


background processing information, it takes a few days to finish up, let's say an RCP file. We're going to have our technicians start to design based on the Matterport Just like say the contours of the building, knowing that the lighter is going to come in a few days and then overlay the lighter. We do the adjustments just to save time.

[00:44:44]
Amir Frank: During the project, saving time by using Matterport and then tweaking those measurements to get them as accurate as possible using the RTC.

[00:44:52]
Alberto Palomino: Tweaking. Rev it out of the market. It was called Rev it because of that revision. It's all about tweaking. You can have a space and you tweak it. That's what Rev it is great for. Just tweaking stuff around.

[00:45:05]
Amir Frank: I've heard the same from Arap's use case. We had them on the webinar. They do exactly the same thing. Now also the visual that you were saying before is really good to know the condition of a wall, for example. Maybe it's not enough just to know the measurement of the wall and the distance. But also is there dry rot in the beam? What the condition is and having that visual I think is super

important. You need to know if you're going to have to tear it down, rebuild it or what it's going to cost. Not something you want to discover halfway through the project.

[00:45:41]
Amir Frank: Does Matterport have plans to support the new likable K36. If so, what is the timeframe? Yes, absolutely. We are planning on doing that. I don't know what the time frame is. Unfortunately, we would love to do it. The G2, but I don't have a timeframe. I wish I did. How is the card overlaid in the video? Is this in post-processing or another software? When you're making your video, obviously that's

more like a promotional video to show what capabilities you have and the assets that you provide your customers. But how do you do that in a video? Or did you have a third party company doing it for you?

[00:46:19]
Alberto Palomino: First, we're going to do videos of almost every project we do. It's our own way of celebrating the end of closing something up with momentum or something like that. But we're going to be using software like New Begun, which is amazing for Clouds and geometry between motion. Adobe Premiere. But we're going to download the Matterport. We're going to match it with the card and
the Rev it and New Begun with the Kenosha and then touch ups with Adobe Premiere. Those so far are very good. Anyone can get a hold on them. They are pretty affordable. They give you the ability to do this. To show people how cool it is to work with scans and to create geometry out of it.

[00:47:17]
Amir Frank: Do you take manual measurements to verify the measurements from the scan? I think with the RTC that would probably not be necessary.

[00:47:27]
Alberto Palomino: With the RTC no. With the Matterport, we will take general measurements of the space. Let's say that we're going to take measurements just to make sure we have some contingency or redundancy data set that we can rely upon if there are any issues on site.

[00:47:47]
Amir Frank: As an architect, for your technicians to know that they're doing the best job that they can do when they're creating that as-built. You want to always give them two sources of information, not just the Matterport scan, but also either an RTC or just a couple wall measurements taken with a laser measurement.

[00:48:04]
Alberto Palomino: The point is that redundancy is important because we're going to be outside. Like I said, we're going to be doing 360s and RTC. Sometimes we're even going to overlay it with Ron photogrammetry with control points. Because at the end time on site, the most important, how do you make it efficient? But you don't want to leave the site with holes in your data set. That's the worst you

could do. Nobody wants to call a client and say, hey, I forgot to measure a bath. It's not professional. Just for safety or paranoia, we're always leaving the side with at least two datasets that we can rely upon. On top of that, I'm going to ask my technicians to take a structure for photography. Just to make sure we have a bit more information. We try to maximize the data collection side, and we do that. We

have a PDF with the checklist information that we need. We have a structured approach to how we do the Matterports, as well as how we capture photography or RTC or drone photogrammetry. It's the way we were building the company. I rather have way too much information, but not enough.

[00:49:31]
Amir Frank: Regarding the video that we looked at with the hotel. Jacob asked, the hotel showcase must consist of more than one Matterport space. How do you get two or more spaces to align when you order beam files? Was that captured in a single model? I don't see why not? It could have been.

[00:49:49]
Alberto Palomino: No, we actually went two or three times to that hotel and we might need to go back again because it's an ongoing contract. What we do when we have that, that's a very important issue. The vertical connectivity of spaces. We always capture staircases. Staircases that help us align at least two staircases that are going to help us triangulate spaces on top of each other. That's how we

addressed. Let's say the contract is only that's covered, it's only the first floor. I'm going to ask the technicians right away. I want you to go up one floor and just capture some portions of your floor. I don't know if you're going to call us back again.

[00:50:35]
Amir Frank: Capture some overlapping scan data, staircases, things like that. There's a few scan positions up into the second floor. You do keep those as separate models. You don't just build on top of the original model that you have captured in your Matterport as well?

[00:50:51]
Alberto Palomino: Well, what we do, we capture it in one original model and then we do copies. We have the internal copy and then we have the copy that we share with the clients. The copy with the clients, it's a bit more neat. But we keep a backup of, let's say the overlapped area that we have for modeling purposes.

[00:51:17]
Amir Frank: We've got a couple more questions here. Thomas asked, what disciplines do you need on your team to do this type of work? After scanning the job site and ordering the matter pack. That's the relatively easy part. What skills or experience are necessary on your team to generate the as-built or what type of company should you bring on the team to do that subcontract work?

[00:51:44]
Alberto Palomino: Well, if the Nashville thumb means geometry, we do that internally. We have an office that really matters, that's our production center here in Montreal. The typical profile of a drafting technician or a being technician, it's a background in architecture or engineering. Know-how on AutoCad, revit, SketchUp, arctic cod. Those are the solvers that we use the most. I would say two

and five years of experience it's enough for someone to grasp what we do. What we have developed are just systems to help people address questions. What do we do in cases that the data that I showcase this type of information, how to process. Then we have templates that we use, whether it's rabbit or AutoCad. Sometimes we're going to use our own client templates. Templates, CBD files for

AutoCad or generic models, or specific models for families. But we have a process and it's mostly people like me with an architectural engineering background that first and foremost formulas to understand plans, understand buildings and understand the logic behind the building. The logic behind them, mechanical systems. Why are they built like that? They have some times to meet technicians to

lift the ceiling tiles. They have to be smart about it. Which ceiling tiles are the ones over which, you know that the systems are running. How do I capture the information that's relevant? It obviously requires a technical background, but also the capacity to understand the building and the ability to follow a very structured guideline. What is that we need to do? From the get-go, how much time we have

allocated for this project and what are our expectations that are going to come out of this phase of the project. Then for the field, for car technicians, like I said, I buried them with different data sets that they can look into to feel more comfortable when they're drafting red. Because these are the people that you also need to understand the building very well.

It comes with a lot of information to help you understand it.

[00:54:29]
Amir Frank: Sounds good. What do you recommend for 3D aerial drone products? What do you use?

[00:54:35]
Alberto Palomino: We use DG I.

[00:54:41]
Alberto Palomino: We just use photogrammetry for wrongs. What I found that their critical component when using UAVs is the control points. It's because the data could be not useful or just pretty. Or it could be extremely useful if you know how to put control points on the ground to help you get a better tolerance. Whoever is working on the UAV business, developing expertise on control

points, it's probably the thing I would invest my time on. It's been undervalued for the amount of the return on investment that brings to a professional. There's two different things to have drawn. Technicians can put control points. It doesn't need to be an aligned surveyor, but is able to tighten their data set to a way higher degree of accuracy than a drone technician that is going to give you beautiful views.

But the actual mesh or the Cloud is wavy and he's not crisp. It changes the game completely.

[00:56:02]
Alberto Palomino: People in that industry develop this expertise on control points, which is not something that expensive. You just need to learn how to do it makes a big difference.

[00:56:17]
Amir Frank: Adding control points is key for drone Photogrammetry.

[00:56:21]
Alberto Palomino: It's key. For the type of work that we do, that's not marketing. You know, it's actual surveying structures. It changes the contract we did for that small commission. We use ContraPoints because part of the scope was also to build new buildings on site, in parking lots, and new structures. They needed to understand how to do rain management. When you are looking into terrains. It's a different

industry. It's a different mindset. When you design where to put your parking lot, you need to look at the heights. We look at how the rainwater is going to behave. What's the height of your sewers? That's very important. Sometimes you need to put it on top of the ground that's extremely expensive as well. It's a big business in precise disk capacity to grow down to, let's say, half an inch of tolerance,

which is just very marketable.

[00:57:31]
Amir Frank: That's it. A couple of more questions because we are at a time. Is there a way to add notes in the Capture section? As you're going around and scanning in the Matterport app throughout the capture processes are ways to add notes. Unfortunately the answer is not yet, but we're definitely working on it. Expect that to come. Unfortunately there's no time frame I can commit to anything. It just

It all depends on bandwidth. Do you align afterwards in Rivets? You've got now a couple of different assets. You've got maybe an RTC, you've got the Matterport, you've got a drone. I'm guessing you bring all that into Revit and just click everything together, align to get the most information possible. How does that work?

[00:58:18]
Alberto Palomino: Well, you really need to read it through recap, which is another Autodesk software and then once you Revit, you use coordinates. You share coordinates. Let's say between the Revit model, the letter set, and the Matterport. If you've C7 or even add your own mesh, as long as you set up the same coordinates within Revit, you're going to give you the ability to open and close the datasets that you want to work with at the moment. But they all have to be synchronized in terms of coordinates. That's how we delivered our glands. We deliver. I said that every data set is coordinated there especially

within each other. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how we do it.

[00:59:09]
Amir Frank: I hope so. I Guess it will have to suffice. We are at times, unfortunately, this was great. I think this was really helpful information. Really appreciate your time, Alberto. Thank you very much for coming on. If somebody out there wants to get a hold of you, maybe ask a couple of questions or maybe take advantage of your services. How can they get a hold of you?

[00:59:35]
Alberto Palomino: Thanks, Amir, for the invitation to you to ensure men are having a lot of fun. Actually, like I said, it's always cool to look back and to share. It's an industry that everyone likes to share a lot. To reach me, it's very easy. We have a website www.dcmsnetwork.com. You can always submit a note there through the contact form or you can call us. There is a toll-free number or email me at

palomino@dcmsnetwork.com or infoward@dcmscenter.com. But we're around and we're always happy to talk about this. We were looking forward to it.

[01:00:18]
Amir Frank: Sounds great. Super. Thank you very much. Again, thanks to Charmaine and Antonio who are in the background helping with the questions. Thanks to all the great questions, this was awesome. I really appreciate it. Take care everybody. Have a good rest of the day.

[01:00:35]
Alberto Palomino: Thank you.

[01:00:35]
Amir Frank: Bye bye.