Transcript | How Architects Leverage Matterport Shot with a Leica BLK36016377
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| WGAN-TV | How Architects Leverage Matterport Tours Shot with a Leica BLK360 | Guest: Immersaf Media Principal Matt Crowder @MattSCrowder | Thursday, 3 February 2022 | Episode Number: 133 Matterport Digital Twin shot with a Leica BLK360 by Immersaf Media (and Matt S. Photography) Principal Matt Crowder.  Immersaf Media WGAN-TV | How Architects Leverage Matterport Digital Twins Created with a Leica BLK360 Camera/Scanner Hi All, [Transcript Below] ============================================ If you are a real estate photographer - wondering how to transition to scanning jobs that pay more than residential real estate, this is a must watch WGAN-TV Live at 5 show (above). Indianapolis, IN-based Immersaf Media Principal Matt Crowder @MattSCrowder shows and tells: 1. Uses Cases by Architects 2. Advantages of a Leica BLK360 Scanner/Camera versus a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera 3. Advantages of a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera versus a Leica BLK360 Scanner/Camera 4. Compares the Leica BLK360 point cloud from a Matterport Matterport MatterPak versus downloading the point cloud directly from the Leica BLK360 Here is the Matterport document that Matt mentions during the show: => Matterport FAQ: Matterport & BLK360 Integration Example of a REVIT Model courtesy of Immersaf Media Principal Matt Crowder @MattSCrowder Plus, see the Matterport digital twin (above) of the same space. ============================================ How can Matterport Service Providers succeed faster – with a higher paying vertical (architects) than residential real estate – with the same scanning process, but with a higher end scanner/camera: Leica BLK360. My guest on WGAN-TV Live at 5 on Thursday, 3 February 2021 is Indianapolis based-Immersaf Media (and Matt S. Photography) Principal Matt Crowder. Matt will show and tell us about: ✓ WGAN-TV | How Architects Leverage Matterport Digital Twins Created with a Leica BLK360 Camera/Scanner Questions Include 1. What are the use cases for architects? 2. The advantages to the architect of doing the scans with a BLK360? 3. Can you show us some examples? 4. When/why would you use the BLK360 software instead of Matterport? Also ... Matt emailed me: I have the Matterport point cloud and the point cloud built from the scans downloaded from the Leica Camera and registered on Leica software. The difference is very distinct. I will ... share my screen to show those. .... Other questions that I should ask Matt on WGAN-TV Live at 5? Best, Dan Links ✓ WGAN Forum: @MattSCrowder ✓ Immersaf Media ✓ Matt S. Photography ✓ LinkedIn: Matt Crowder ✓ Facebook: Matt S Crowder Photography --- Video: A Tutorial for the Cyclone FIELD 360 App with Andy Fontana | Video courtesy of Leica BLK YouTube Channel | 13 August 2019 Video: How to Combine BLK360 Laser Scans with REGISTER 360 BLK Edition | Video courtesy of Leica BLK YouTube Channel | 25 August 2020 Transcript (WGAN-TV Video Above) [00:00:02] Dan Smigrod: Hi all. I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Around Network Forum. Today is Thursday, February 3, 2022 and you're watching WGAN-TV Live at 5. We have an awesome show for you today: How Architects Leverage Matterport Digital Twins Created with a Leica BLK360 Cameras/Scanner and here to talk to us about that is Matt Crowder. Hey, Matt, good to see you. [00:00:31] Matt S. Crowder: Good to see you as well Dan. [00:00:33] Dan Smigrod: Matt is the Principal of Immersaf Media based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Matt before we jump into today's topic, how about telling us about Immersaf Media? [00:00:47] Matt S. Crowder: Immersaf Media is actually an evolution of a business that I started in September 2019. I left my job and became a full-time commercial branding photographer. Just using a Sony mirrorless camera and photographing anything that would tell a brand story. I started building my business and March 2020, rolled around. COVID lockdown happened and I had no business whatsoever. I did whatever a responsible business owner does in my place when I am not making money, I spent more money and bought a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. I wanted to take it commercially instead of residential, because the residential market is saturated. Plus, my network was mostly marketing agencies, having been a commercial brand photographer. So I got the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera, I want to say May of 2020 and then by July of 2020, I'm doing hospitals' maternity wards so they can give tours of the facility where women are going to give birth when they weren't allowed to have guests because of COVID. Me being the nerd that I am, I got really curious: the software process with which Matterport Camera stitched together automatically and realized it was using [infrared] technology. I started looking into that and how else can I use this? Because I always like to pick things apart and reuse things in different ways and stuff and then I found that there's a lot of people using it to create "as-builts" of physical spaces and have it turned into Revit or CAD. I got really interested in that. I bet there's a lot of good money in commercial construction. A lot of money goes through construction projects. Let's look at that. October 2020, I didn't know a single architect, but I knew that's what the direction I wanted to go. I founded Immersaf Media – Immersaf Media – however you want to pronounce it. Because I did a lot more than photography now and I didn't want to be pigeonholed as a photographer. I started to create Immersaf Media, I started doing virtual tours and then started meeting architects in October. I didn't know a single one, started reaching out on LinkedIn and during the pandemic, I was having Zoom meetings with at least one architect a week. Just having a conversation; telling my story and what I was interested in doing and how I could do it. Realized that I wouldn't get very far using a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. Is just not accurate enough. Being the risk taker that I am, I decided that I was going to buy a BLK. I started the - [00:03:22] Dan Smigrod: Leica BLK360 for $19,000+... [00:03:27] Matt S. Crowder: Right. I started the whole financing process and got my Leica BLK360 January 4th of 2021, with absolutely no clients actually lined up to use it. I just knew that I had talked to enough people, so I started reaching back out to those people. I'm, "Hey, I can do this now I got this camera. It's accurate to within 6 millimeters, 0.23 inches." So on and so forth and a lot of them have heard of Matterport and know about it in accuracy. They were excited to hear about a Camera that was more accurate that did the same things that a Matterport Camera did. I got my first job in February; my first actual gig with an architect and I've learned a lot since then. That's the short story of Immersaf Media and how it came about and where I am now. [00:04:12] Dan Smigrod: That's awesome. That actually brings us right to our topic: How Architects Leverage Matterport Digital Twins Created with the Leica BLK360 Camera/Scanner. Can you talk about the use cases? You mentioned "as-built".. Perhaps we could start with that. What is an "as-built"...? [00:04:31] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. When an architect starts a project on a building that already exists, it's very helpful for them to know what's already there and if they don't have drawings, they don't have what the "as-built" is which is as-built documentation, be it CAD drawings, paper drawings and so on and so forth. That would be one of the use cases. That's an "as-built" showing what the current conditions of a building is. [00:04:54] Dan Smigrod: So, aren't there already CAD files – or original construction drawings – for a building so that – [00:05:06] Matt S. Crowder: Sometimes there are, sometimes there isn't and even if there are construction drawings, that doesn't mean that it shows current conditions. There may have been renovations, there may have been things in the building that have changed that were never documented, so they don't necessarily trust 20-year-old construction documents on a commercial building. [00:05:25] Dan Smigrod: So the architect has been engaged to re-imagine an existing space and perhaps rather than come out and take a bazillion photos and a ton of measurements, what does the scan data enable the architect to do? [00:05:44] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. Whether you use it in a Pro2 or a Leica BLK360, both of them generate a 3D model called a point cloud. In Matterport you can get that in the MatterPaks; the.XYZ file. There are a couple of other extensions that can be used for point clouds, but that essentially is a 3D model of millions or even hundreds of millions of dots that can be used to trace out an "as-built" in CAD or Revit or Vectorworks or whatever the architect uses. [00:06:17] Dan Smigrod: Is the architect using that to propose a design to the client? To create construction drawings for clients? What happens once the architect re-imagines a space using the XYZ file in a CAD program? [00:06:41] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. If they use the point cloud or I deliver the actual Revit file themselves. Most architects don't ever see the point cloud. But if I deliver the Revit file or the CAD file, then they can take that file itself; manipulate it in Revit or CAD software and then, yes, present that to the client with ideas for a redesign or renovation. [00:07:04] Dan Smigrod: I'm going to ask you more questions about a Revit file, but I'm going to put that aside for the moment and come back to that .RVT file. The first use case you described by an architect: "as-builts"... Are there other use cases for the scanning of a space? [00:07:23] Matt S. Crowder: They're very similar, but slightly different like a facades study, for example. If they're only going to renovate the exterior of a building, they want to know what the different materials are. Some facades can be very complex, like apartment buildings with balconies, MEP (Mechanical. Electrical. Plumbing) on the exterior and all that stuff. They need to know all that it's there. It can be difficult to measure that by hand. So that would be another use case that I've been used for quite a bit. [00:07:55] Dan Smigrod: Once again, it's taking the three dimensional model, whatever file format that's in; that the architect can work with in their CAD software. Then once they bring it into their software, they can begin designing rather than reconstructing someone else's design, they can now begin with their proposed design? [00:08:20] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. [00:08:21] Dan Smigrod: Okay. An "as-built" for an entire building. Facades – fascia – of existing [building exterior]. Is there even a market there for facades of buildings? [00:08:33] Matt S. Crowder: For facades? Yes. Especially for historical facades studies. If a town has a historic downtown district and wants to modernize their facades while still maintaining the historical value; then they would have me do facades studies so they can determine with their software that they can use that to redesign the facades of the building. One of my clients is renovating the side of a commercial building that has stores on the bottom and apartments up top. But they're going to renovate that entire facade and change the look of that. They want to know what's there; what the different materials are; and stuff like that. That's where the photography comes in because it can show them along with their software, what's there. [00:09:20] Dan Smigrod: The BLK360 shoots both photos: 360 photos, spherical photos, and scan data? [00:09:29] Matt S. Crowder: Yep. Yep. [00:09:31] Dan Smigrod: Okay, so now we talked about two use-cases. Are there other use cases that architects are engaging Immersaf Media for? [00:09:41] Matt S. Crowder: One other major use case and that is without the point cloud and without the Revit CAD deliverable and that is just the 360 photography that you would do with any Matterport, but with a Leica BLK360, you can do it on the exterior as well. Really large buildings like a high school. I've done a high school this past year. I've done a middle school. I've done some really large buildings. All they want is the virtual walk-through, so they don't have to go and take... 10,000 photos of this large building and then realize they missed something and have to go back out and take photos. The BLK allows me to go scan outside, but I typically use the Matterport inside. [00:10:21] Dan Smigrod: Is that use-case of a walk-through outdoors, is that from an architect or is that just a yet another use-case? [00:10:31] Matt S. Crowder: That's an architect who hired me to do that so they don't have to go and take photos themselves. They already had drawings that were accurate, current. They didn't need drawings. They just wanted the photos so they could see the space in 3D for their renovation purposes. [00:10:50] Dan Smigrod: Okay. Are there other use-cases that come to mind or do you stay super-busy doing facades, "as-builts," and outdoor walking experiences? [00:11:05] Matt S. Crowder: There are some other use-cases, but none that I have been engaged for yet. Those three keep me pretty busy. [00:11:11] Dan Smigrod: Is there a use-case that you're super-excited about but you haven't yet tackled? [00:11:19] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. Structural engineers or mechanical, electrical and plumbing (MEP) engineers for big factories, if they're going to be moving a lot of stuff around, they would like to know where everything is at. That's very complicated. A lot of scans. You could do scans 2 feet, 3 feet apart through an entire room to get all the 3D data needed to model that in a 3D software for an engineer, for example. That sounds like a lot of fun, but I haven't been hired to do that yet. [00:11:51] Dan Smigrod: In that case, that would be an existing space that's going to be configured perhaps with a lot of equipment and the engineer needs to know is the equipment going to fit? Will the people in this space have room to walk around the equipment? Is that the right way to configure it in this space? [00:12:15] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. Or if they're replacing equipment, how are they going to have to run all the conduits and piping and everything to get it to fit? Exactly that. [00:12:23] Dan Smigrod: So that's a use-case that you're excited about. You know that you can do – you just haven't had that client yet? [00:12:33] Matt S. Crowder: Correct. [00:12:36] Dan Smigrod: You started by buying a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. Today, that's under $3,000. You went and bought $19,000 plus Leica BLK360 camera/scanner. What's the big difference between those two cameras/scanners? [00:12:57] Matt S. Crowder: Huge difference. The most obvious and even documented on the Matterport website is the accuracy of the measurements. The Matterport Pro2 is accurate. They say one percent, it's more like two percent and you can find that documentation. For every 50 feet, you could be plus or minus 6 inches. With the Leica BLK360, that's not the case. Within a given distance, I think it's within 60 feet. You're accurate within less than a quarter of an inch, but the Leica also has a range of 200 feet ultimately. After 60 feet, it becomes more like a half-inch accuracy, but that's half-inch accuracy at 200 feet. That's pretty good for most cases. [00:13:38] Dan Smigrod: So far, I think I've heard three advantages of a Leica BLK360 versus a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. The first being accuracy; the level of detail particularly for a large space where that margin of error can get quite large, so accurate or accuracy. Second, was the distance. Do you happen to recall how far a Leica BKL360 can see scan data? [00:14:21] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. At its highest density, it can record accurate data about 200 feet away. [00:14:26] Dan Smigrod: Two hundred feet away versus a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera, which would be about? [00:14:32] Matt S. Crowder: 20 feet give or take. [00:14:35] Dan Smigrod: Maybe two, two and a half stories, a problem inside a gymnasium, for example. The third advantage I heard you say was outdoors because you added a specific use case for doing 360 photography outdoors to create a walking tour of a campus. Are there other benefits of the Leica BLK360 versus the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera in the use cases that you're doing for architects? [00:15:14] Matt S. Crowder: Those are by far the main ones. I guess one other small advantage is that the batteries on the Leica BLK360 are interchangeable so you can charge batteries as you go and it'll ultimately last longer than a Pro2, which lasts about eight hours. Since you can swap the batteries out, I guess you could say that's another slight advantage. [00:15:35] Dan Smigrod: When you're using the Leica BLK360, are you using it paired with the Matterport platform or are you using it with the Leica software or other third-party software? [00:15:49] Matt S. Crowder: It depends on the use case. Let me give you an example. If I'm doing a building and I am going to include a walk-through tour along with the deliverable 3D file, then I'll use the Matterport Capture app. Probably, if they don't need the 360 walk-through, then there's no reason for me to use the Matterport Capture app because I can turn off the camera and just do the Leica scan much more quickly and "register" it in real-time as I'm going. So it's a lot more efficient. I use both depending on the use-case. [00:16:26] Dan Smigrod: On a Leica BLK360 scan that includes both the photography and the scan data, how long does it take to do a rotation of the camera to create a 360 spin; plus scan data? [00:16:45] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. Depending on if you need HDR photography or just regular photography because you can turn that on and off on the Leica. Typically, if I'm indoors and there's not a bunch of windows, I'll turn the HDR off and I'll scan at a low density, unless the rooms are really big. You have low, medium and high density. The low density with no HDR photography takes about a minute and 20 seconds. If you turn on the HDR and you turn it all the way up to high density, let's say you're outdoors, it can take up to six minutes for a scan. [00:17:20] Dan Smigrod: Separate and aside: does that affect how you price a project? Does knowing the use-case of whether you need the photography; you don't need the photography; just need the scan data; don't need as much scan data as a different project? Meaning you could be going from using a Leica BLK360 at the highest density with the HDR photography with each scan taking about six minutes versus how long for your Matterport Pro2 3D Camera? [00:17:58] Matt S. Crowder: The Matterport is, of course, only going to take about 30 seconds. If I know I'm going to be doing a lot of high density scans with HDR, then yeah, I might hike up my price. Typically, I keep my pricing pretty much the same across the board. [00:18:12] Dan Smigrod: There is a factor there in terms of how long it may take you to do, particularly if it's 100,000 square feet, the amount of time that it may take you to complete the project could vary significantly based on what the client's needs are and what settings that you would set on a BLK360 or even use a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. Let's go back to the scenario where you're using a BLK360 paired with the Matterport Capture app. Are you just shooting 100 percent with the BLK360 paired with the Matterport Capture app or are you doing a blend of where some scans are with the BLK360 and some scans are with the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera? [00:19:10] Matt S. Crowder: That's going to be based on the use-case. If I'm going through a building and every scan I do is going to need a photograph, I'll do all that with Leica. Now, if I'm in a scenario where I can capture this whole room with one scan but they want some close-ups of the electrical panel and stuff like that, then I might bring up the Matterport and get a little bit closer so they can walk over there and see the electrical panel. That's an example of what I might do, but typically I do it 100 percent with the BLK360. [00:19:40] Dan Smigrod: What would be the advantages of when you would use a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera? I think the first one I heard was speed because you knew you could do those fixtures in 30 seconds rather than spinning Leica BLK360 for six minutes or a couple minutes. Quality of the photography with the Pro2 versus the Leica BLK360. Is that one of the other advantages of the Pro2? [00:20:03] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. The Pro2 has much better photography than the Leica. The Leica has usable photography for architects, but you're not going to have that really crisp resolution that you get with the Pro2 where you might need to read stuff on an electrical panel or the service schedule on the side of a furnace. You're not going to get that with a Leica. [00:20:24] Dan Smigrod: Are the architects typically engaging you: is one of the use-case for marketing purposes? Or no, all the use-cases are typically prior to the marketing of the property; it's prior to the building being done, the facade is being done? [00:20:46] Matt S. Crowder: After the building is done, some of them have had me go back just to do a walk-around of an "after"... I've got the before and then the after and when I do the after, I use the Pro2. [00:20:57] Dan Smigrod: That's what I'm looking for is the Pro2 is going to be faster with better quality photography with the exception that if it's an outdoor space, then you're going to really need to use the BLK360 and that might be why you have a blend on an after tour of a finished space is because you have indoor and outdoor? [00:21:24] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:21:27] Dan Smigrod: When you're just shooting with a Leica BLK360, let's stay first with the output for Matterport because you mentioned Revit. Then you mentioned .RVT is a file format, when you use the Matterport Pro 2 3D Camera paired with the Capture app, or the Leica BLK360 paired with the Matterport Capture app, we're doing a blend to get the .XYZ file and the reflective ceiling tiles, you're purchasing the Matterport MatterPak, but the Revit file is not an option. So how do you go from Matterport MatterPak that has an .OBJ object file, a .XYZ point cloud, reflective ceiling tiles in order to be able to deliver a Revit file? How do you do that file conversion if you're doing that? [00:22:39] Matt S. Crowder: Sure, so I'm going to backup before I answer that exact question, backup just a little bit. I don't ever touch the MatterPak. The Leica BLK360 enables me to download the scans from the camera, because the camera saves the scans, and that point cloud data – from the camera directly – is way more accurate and valuable than the point cloud that comes out of the MatterPak registration. [00:23:05] Dan Smigrod: Hmmm. So please talk to me; a little bit more in greater detail, I know we talked about this earlier in the show, is related to the scanning using a BLK360, but help me understand the Matterport MatterPak .XYZ file versus the .XYZ file that comes out of the Leica BLK360. They both were created with the same gear. They both were created with a Leica BLK360. So how is the .XYZ file directly outputted from the Leica BLK360 different? How does it compare to the Matterport MatterPak .XYZ file? [00:24:03] Matt S. Crowder: As documented by Matterport, I'm more than happy to send you the article, there are two main differences. Number 1, the Matterport registration, artificial intelligence that registers the point cloud or stitches the different scans together, it's very quick and efficient, that's the plus part. The con – that's the pro – the con is that if there's a wall, if there's an angle that's 88.8 degrees, it's going to register it at 90 degrees. That's just the way the algorithm works when it registers the scans together, so there's a lack of accuracy there. Number 2 is that Matterport decimates the points on the point cloud. It removes not quite half of them, but probably a good 15-20 percent, which I guess that's not technically decimating. Decimating would be 10 percent, but you get my point. It removes a bunch of those clouds, so you're not going to have as dense of a point cloud. You're not going to have as much detail, especially further away from the camera, and I actually show you an example. [00:25:08] Dan Smigrod: Why does the density of the point cloud matter to an architect? [00:25:13] Matt S. Crowder: They may need to see something in that density, it's easier to show you that it is to explain. [00:25:20] Dan Smigrod: Okay. Great. This is a great time, why don't we jump in and if you could show us, that would be awesome. [00:25:27] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. Let me answer your original question. I have a guy who I got as a referral from the We Get Around Network who takes point clouds and converts them to Revit and CAD files, which was your original question. [00:25:41] Dan Smigrod: Great. So two things: 1) if you could, yes, please do email me the Matterport link that compares the Matterport MatterPak .XYZ file versus the direct output from a BLK360. I'll post that article, a link to that in the We Get Around Network Forum: www.WGANForum.com in the topic of today's show, How Architects Leverage Matterport Tours Created with the Leica BLK360. For our viewers, if you just go to – We Get Around Network Forum – go to the search box and just search for the key words in the title line – Architects Leica BLK360 – you'll find that link. 2) is for those that need a referral for a Matterport MatterPak file conversion to go to a Revit file (.RVT), SketchUp file (.SKP) or any other CAD file format, please reach out to me. I'm not hard to find in the We Get Around Network Forum: @DanSmigrod. Show and tell? [00:27:05] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:27:07] Dan Smigrod: What are you going to show us? [00:27:11] Matt S. Crowder: The first thing I'm going to show you is a comparison of point clouds; between a MatterPak that I downloaded from the Leica BLK360. Both point clouds are from the exact same camera, the exact same scans, one was registered by Matterport, the other one is registered by me, on the Leica software. [00:27:31] Dan Smigrod: What does registered mean? I remember registering in college and I took a lot of classes. What does register mean in this world? [00:27:42] Matt S. Crowder: To register a point cloud means you're taking the different scans, and you're stitching them together, that's essentially what it means. You're stitching them together. [00:27:51] Dan Smigrod: You're literally connecting the dots. [00:27:52] Matt S. Crowder: Yes. [00:27:54] Dan Smigrod: The points in the point cloud. [00:27:56] Matt S. Crowder: Yes. It's mostly automated but there is some manual work, there is the need for some manual, what's the word I'm looking for? Influence. [00:28:09] Dan Smigrod: So please do. Share your screen. Show us and I think we're going to take a look, we're going to look at a Matterport MatterPak .XYZ file and tell us the register that we're looking at. [00:28:24] Matt S. Crowder: This is from a Matterport .XYZ file. This was the point cloud as registered by Matterport of a historical gym in Indiana. This is done on Autodesk ReCap Pro. I just brought the .XYZ file under ReCap Pro. [00:28:41] Dan Smigrod: Got to go slower for me. So, let's go back to the first one, let's go back to the first one you showed inside the gymnasium, please. [00:28:49] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah, it's the same point cloud, I haven't changed it. [00:28:53] Dan Smigrod: I see what looks like different resolutions. Is this all from the Matterport MatterPak? [00:29:00] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah, this is all from the Matterport MatterPak. Some of the dots go away when I move it around, but then they pop back once I stop. [00:29:08] Dan Smigrod: Okay, so we have a little bit of lag of how we do WGAN-TV Live at 5. It's not necessarily that you're changing different images, it's still the same image. You're just rotating the image slightly. Then if we get lag we're seeing some dots. [00:29:26] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah, I'm navigating around the Matterport point cloud. You can see the exterior of the gym, and then I can zoom in and go inside. But that's where you see the real difference between the Matterport MatterPak and the downloaded scans from the BLK360. [00:29:45] Dan Smigrod: I'm still confused. Have you shown us the downloaded version from the BLK360? [00:29:50] Matt S. Crowder: I have not. Let me show you what to pay attention to when I switch point clouds here. You see these bars that go across, it looks like they're part of the ceiling structure? [00:29:58] Dan Smigrod: Yes. [00:29:59] Matt S. Crowder: Okay, you can see what's there. Now, watch the difference when I switch to the version that I registered myself out of the scans from the BLK360. It may take a second to load here. [00:30:14] Dan Smigrod: Okay, this is so awesome! I'm so grateful for your explanation of this. Oh my gosh, this looks completely different. [00:30:25] Matt S. Crowder: Can you see the difference in the ceiling structure, the support? [00:30:29] Dan Smigrod: You can actually see the ceiling structure. [00:30:31] Matt S. Crowder: It's a huge difference. These are two models from the exact same scan. I did not scan twice. I did not use different gear. This is straight out of the BLK360 REGISTER 360; with the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 software, as opposed to the MatterPak which was registered by Matterport AI service. [00:30:52] Dan Smigrod: Wow, this is the difference between night and day. Now, please bear with me. I know you've said it, but I just want to be clear on this. [00:31:02] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. [00:31:02] Dan Smigrod: The first set of scans that you showed us were shot with a Leica BLK360 paired with the Matterport Capture app. Then the output was from a Matterport MatterPak. Now, was that file then converted? No, you were showing the.XYZ file? [00:31:25] Matt S. Crowder: Yes, I was showing the original .XYZ file. [00:31:28] Dan Smigrod: We were looking at the original .XYZ file. Now we're looking at the software you used here. [00:31:38] Matt S. Crowder: The software that I used here, I used the BLK360 [Data Manager] to download the scans from the Camera, as they were saved in the Camera. Then I registered it in the Cyclone REGISTER 360 BLK Edition Software. [00:31:52] Dan Smigrod: Okay. If I buy a Leica BLK360. Do I get that for free? Do I have to pay money to license that? [00:32:00] Matt S. Crowder: You'll get a license for one year if you buy a brand new BLK360 from Leica. If you buy a used BLK360, then you'll have to pay for your software. It costs roughly $1,200 a year at the base level for a one-year license. [00:32:17] Dan Smigrod: The name of the software again is the... It's the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 BLK Edition. From Leica? [00:32:27] Matt S. Crowder: Yes. [00:32:28] Dan Smigrod: Okay. You mentioned, if you bought a used one. That's not buying a used license. If you bought a used Leica BLK360, it's not going to come with a one-year free subscription to this software. If you're going to do what you're doing, then you would need to license this software, and that's where that approximate $1,200 comes in? [00:32:56] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. Exactly. [00:32:57] Dan Smigrod: Matt, I'm looking at this point cloud and the difference is night and day. [00:33:03] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:33:04] Dan Smigrod: Why would anyone even ever use a Matterport MatterPak? [00:33:09] Matt S. Crowder: Two reasons: number 1) it's cheaper than paying for the software. Number 2) you wouldn't necessarily need to register it yourself if you're not trying to get a lot of details. If you're doing a house or something that doesn't require roof supports or something that's small detail like this, then the MatterPak would suffice. I have done office buildings and they've just wanted a basic model with doors, windows, floors, ceilings, walls. They didn't need any of the mechanical, electrical, plumbing (MEP), or anything like that. I would use the MatterPak from that because it is accurate. For that, much of it if it's done with a BLK360, and I don't have to register it myself, which takes an extra hour or two of my time. [00:33:57] Dan Smigrod: - It sounds like it's super-important that your client is very specific with what the use-case of the scan data – which will determine how you scan it – which gear you will use to scan it. There's so many things here. I'm going to just break it down. Depending on what the use-case is, you may use only a Matterport Pro2 3D Camera. Unlikely based on our conversation so far. You may use a Leica BLK360 only. You may use a Leica BLK360 paired with the Matterport Pro2 3D Camera using the Matterport Capture app. Depending on what the final output is, maybe determine whether you're doing all BLK360 or all Pro2 or some Pro2 scans. It will also determine whether you're doing a six-minute high density HDR photography scan with the BLK360, and perhaps even the distance between the scans, and then ultimately how you end up providing the data. [00:35:22] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:35:23] Dan Smigrod: But somehow you figured out how to price all this so that it's not that hard and the pricing is still generally the same. [00:35:30] Matt S. Crowder: I keep things pretty simple and my profit margin is enough that I don't need to worry about nickeling and diming. [00:35:36] Dan Smigrod: Okay. If I may, is pricing generally based on square footage? [00:35:40] Matt S. Crowder: It is generally based on square footage. [00:35:42] Dan Smigrod: Okay. What I've heard is you never provide the Matterport MatterPak to the client. You're always providing a Revit file or a SketchUp file or some other CAD file. In fact, this seems like the appropriate time to ask you a question. A We Get Around Network Forum member emailed me prior to the show. "What are the main differences in use-case or capabilities between the register software options, such as the lower cost options as Autodesk ReCap Pro, compared to perhaps the more expensive option of the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360" – which you mentioned is $1,200 a year? [00:36:36] Matt S. Crowder: Leica used to have a deal with ReCap Pro, where you could use the ReCap Pro app. They had a capture app on the iPad that you could use to scan, just like the Matterport Capture app. That is no longer available and hasn't been available for about a year. ReCap discontinued that. You can't use a ReCap Pro capture app for Leica BLK360 whatsoever. [00:37:00] Dan Smigrod: That's an easy one to now get back to our WGAN Forum member. Autodesk ReCap Pro is simply not an option when using the BLK360. Are there other softwares such as Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 that you would use to register a model? [00:37:22] Matt S. Crowder: To be honest with you, if one exists, I don't know about it. I haven't really explored because I have the Cyclone software and it works so well with the BLK360, that I really haven't looked. [00:37:30] Dan Smigrod: If you're a Matterport Service Provider and you're trying to scratch your head listening to today's show and you're thinking, "Well, the residential real estate is an overcrowded space, the revenue per house is a challenge. I'm thinking about getting a Leica BLK360. The workflow is either going to be outputting a Matterport MatterPak or learning how to use the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 BLK Edition. Do you ever export the file from the BLK360 and give that to the architect? [00:38:24] Matt S. Crowder: No. Most architects don't know what to do with the point cloud. [00:38:27] Dan Smigrod: Awesome, I think that is super-valuable information. Because we might assume – I just do the scan and I just give the raw data to the architect. But the architect only knows the CAD software that they use, which would typically be SketchUp or Revit, maybe some other AutoCAD program CAD software. You have to then listen to what the client tells you of which format they need the data. I was presuming that the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 Software BLK Edition, once you register a line in the point cloud, that you can output any file format that you need? [00:39:15] Matt S. Crowder: No, not any. There's a couple of formats. The one that I use the most is .RCP or .RCS (which is ReCap). Yes, it's like the ReCap file extension. You can output the ReCap file extension which can be imported into the Revit software, which is like the 3D version of AutoCAD. You import the point cloud and then you trace over the point cloud. But I have, like I said, somebody else that I got referred to from you who does that for me, so I send them the point cloud and they create the Revit or the CAD file. [00:39:50] Dan Smigrod: Awesome. I think what I'm hearing is that the .RCP file is generally readable by any CAD software. I want to say it's the universal language and can be imported into Revit or SketchUp or Autodesk AutoCAD. [00:40:14] Matt S. Crowder: I can't speak to SketchUp or Vectorworks or anything like that. Revit and AutoCAD are both Autodesk products as is ReCap. Since the Cyclone REGISTER 360 BLK360 Edition software is exporting as a ReCap file (.RCP), or .RCS, then it's able to be used within Autodesk software. SketchUp isn't an Autodesk software. [00:40:35] Dan Smigrod: Great, so please someone who's listening to WGAN-TV Live at 5 today, and you're familiar with this topic, please fact check us here about whether I've misspoken about a .RCP file can generally be imported into any CAD program including SketchUp. If that is the case, please confirm if it's not the case, please confirm, and if you're thinking about buying the Leica BLK360, and this is an important feature, you might want to fact check this topic. [00:41:09] Matt S. Crowder: It may be the case that I'm wrong too, because I haven't actually tried. I just know that ReCap is Autodesk just like Revit and CAD. [00:41:15] Dan Smigrod: Cool. Could you go back to your demo and maybe show the Matterport tour of the high school gym that you did. I just like to have a bigger context of what it look like first. [00:41:33] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:41:34] Dan Smigrod: Maybe if you could just pop out of that, go take us to the dollhouse and then fly back in. I think that's helpful to see that you're showing this in Matterport. You used the Matterport Capture app paired with the Leica BLK360 to shoot this gymnasium inside and out. ReCap Pro. Did you use a Pro2, at all? [00:41:58] Matt S. Crowder: I did not. [00:41:59] Dan Smigrod: Totally done with the Leica BLK360 paired with the Matterport Capture app now hosted on the Matterport Cloud. There's one place – where you have – I don't know if it's a smokestack or an exhaust? Boom, there it is. If we could go there. I noticed that you have the fasade. Do you call it a smokestack? What would that be? [00:42:36] Matt S. Crowder: Yes. Chimney of some sort. [00:42:38] Dan Smigrod: Some chimney, I guess you have three-dimensions. You have the side facing. Yeah. So we see two dimensions of that chimney. Now, if we walk to the other side, we'll see the other dimension. But I actually noticed when we looked at the point cloud of it, there was a piece that you've demoed on the We Get Around Network Forum. There's a link to it that you sent me ahead of time, the Revit file. [00:43:12] Matt S. Crowder: You want to see that? [00:43:14] Dan Smigrod: Yeah, because you can see the chimney and I'm wondering about where did those measurements come from to construct that in a full 3D rendering of the chimney – even though you only had three of the four measurements? [00:43:31] Matt S. Crowder: Sure, so the easiest answer is the guy that I had modeled this, basically assumed the measurements based on what was existing. This right here is going to be the interior of the roof. They did not pay me to scan the roof, so this is the dimensions of the interior of the roof, and then this is the dimensions based on what little data we have. You've got one side here, one side here you can see where this drops off and you can see the curvature of the roof and the rest is just assumed. [00:44:02] Dan Smigrod: Thank you. Just wondering how you did that. Then on this one, I want to say, we were talking about use-cases and I want to say construction drawings. Can you show us and point to that? [00:44:17] Matt S. Crowder: This is the Revit version on a Revit viewer. This isn't the Revit software, but then it also comes with CAD floor plans. Is what you're talking about? [00:44:27] Dan Smigrod: Yes, so that's a service that you offer though you use a vendor to help you with that? [00:44:38] Matt S. Crowder: Correct. [00:44:40] Dan Smigrod: You're fully capable of delivering. What was the use case for this gymnasium? [00:44:48] Matt S. Crowder: The City of Sullivan Indiana, where this high school gym is located, wants to renovate this gym to more modernize it. But once again, it is a historical property, it's actually on the historical register, so they wanted to maintain its historical value. One of the major use cases that I get used for a lot is older buildings, because older buildings don't have standard wall thicknesses, standard ceiling heights, standard door openings and so on and so forth, whereas a modern building an architect can go in hand measure and make a lot of assumptions based on today's standards. You can't do that with an older building, and they get really tricky, so they have me go in and scan older buildings because I'm way more thorough and way faster and way more accurate than if they did it by hand. [00:45:29] Dan Smigrod: Is that truly the alternative to go out with a laser measure and take some pictures? [00:45:36] Matt S. Crowder: That's the most common alternative, yes. [00:45:44] Dan Smigrod: If we went back mentally, when you first started talking to the architects, what was their workflow then before they engaged you? [00:45:56] Matt S. Crowder: Sure, so for this gym, for example, let me use this. They would go out with a laser measure just a hand laser measure and some graph paper start taking measurements and drawing on graph paper. They're going to make some assumptions based on what they know. If I go in here, just to give you an example. [00:46:15] Dan Smigrod: Do you want to share your screen again or just tell us? [00:46:17] Matt S. Crowder: Oh, I'm not sharing, I'm sorry. [00:46:19] Dan Smigrod: I took you off the screen-sharing. [00:46:22] Matt S. Crowder: If I go inside here and they need to know the ceiling height up here, they're not going to get up there with a laser measure and get an accurate measurement. Instead, they're going to count bricks. They count bricks. [00:46:35] Dan Smigrod: You're making that up. ;-) [00:46:36] Matt S. Crowder: No, I'm not. [00:46:37] Dan Smigrod: Yes, you are. Tell me you're making that up. ;-) [00:46:39] Matt S. Crowder: I'm not. This is what the architect told me. They would count bricks because with the mortar and the bricks, they can assume that it's this high. It's like every three bricks is like eight inches. I forget what he told me. I didn't pay attention. But yeah, they would count these bricks in order to determine what the height is up to the ceiling, and then forget about trying to measure all the structures. [00:47:03] Dan Smigrod: You just think I'm so naive that you can just fool me and tell me that an architect is going to do a very pricey project based on counting bricks? ;-) [00:47:16] Matt S. Crowder: That's how they're going to originally create the model, yes. That's from the architect's mouth. [00:47:24] Dan Smigrod: That's unbelievable. You actually ended up doing this project for that architect. When you came back with your scan data solution from Leica BLK360, what was the architect's reaction when you showed them what was now possible? [00:47:48] Matt S. Crowder: This was not the first job I did for this architect, but the very first job I did for the architect, he was very impressed about how much time and money I saved him. He spent about a third of the amount of money that he would've spent sending two people out there to go and measure it themselves, and I did it in about a third of the time that it would take two architects at $150 an hour to go out and measure it themselves. [00:48:08] Dan Smigrod: You got to say that again, slower for me. [00:48:10] Matt S. Crowder: Sure. For the first job they sent me out on, they would've sent out two architects to hand measure. It would've taken them about five days with graph paper and then another three weeks to create the Revit CAD file. I did it for about a third of the cost, it would have cost them to do that, and in about a third of the time, it would have taken them to do it that way. [00:48:34] Dan Smigrod: It would've taken them about a month from beginning to end? [00:48:39] Matt S. Crowder: Roughly, because they're working on other things too, so while building this Revit model, they would get distracted, and they'd have to go work on another project and so on and so forth, so yeah. [00:48:48] Dan Smigrod: Okay. But if you're sending two people for five full days to count bricks. Measure. Take pictures, whatever. [00:48:59] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:49:00] Dan Smigrod: Then I guess with that graph paper, they're going back and they're now taking that rough sketch, notes and turning it into a three-dimensional CAD model? [00:49:18] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. [00:49:19] Dan Smigrod: That was about a month. How long did it take you to actually do the scanning portion? [00:49:28] Matt S. Crowder: For that particular job I was there for two full days. [00:49:31] Dan Smigrod: Still, so it's a big big project. Two full days. [00:49:36] Matt S. Crowder: Two full days. [00:49:38] Dan Smigrod: Then you had some turnaround time. [00:49:41] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah, so I sent it off to the guy that I use to convert the point cloud to make up the Revit file, and that took him about, I want to say four business days, so six business days total. [00:49:58] Dan Smigrod: Then you delivered a Revit file based on what the client needed, which was a three-dimensional model of the actual existing as-built. Here's that word again. [00:50:14] Matt S. Crowder: I delivered that and the Matterport walk-through so they didn't have to take photos either. [00:50:22] Dan Smigrod: I just have to think that when you become a licensed architect, the worst thing you could possibly do is reconstruct someone else's design. [00:50:34] Matt S. Crowder: That's tedious. [00:50:35] Dan Smigrod: I got to think you became an architect because you had visions that you wanted to create, not recreate someone else's work. I can imagine there were a lot of thankful people there, but was there any pushback because well, now they couldn't bill out that the two people at five days, they couldn't bill out, whatever it was that they then did that took forever in a day, let's call it a total of a month running time. I'm just thinking that maybe they mark up their costs, so if they mark up what it costs them to do it the old way and they mark up what it costs them to do the new way, in theory, they'd make less money if that's how this works. I don't know. Do you have any insight on that? [00:51:29] Matt S. Crowder: I have a little bit. There's two different ways that architects can handle it. Number 1) they can charge them for the old way, and then pay the new price for my service, or they can 2) charge them the new price for my service and get the bid because their price's lower. That being said, most architects that I've talked to have told me that they operate creating that "as-built" at cost, typically, they pay two architects to go out and do it, they charge cost to keep prices low for that service. I'm actually saving a lot of time. [00:52:04] Dan Smigrod: Why would they do that? [00:52:06] Matt S. Crowder: To get the job, to keep the price down. [00:52:09] Dan Smigrod: To get the job, meaning are they doing work on spec in order to propose a project and then they get paid or? [00:52:19] Matt S. Crowder: Yeah. A lot of times they'll make an assumption as to how long it's going to take them to manually measure the building, and they're going to charge at cost for that because they want to get the bigger piece of the pie, which is actually redesigning the building. [00:52:34] Dan Smigrod: For them, that's just the cost of doing business. [00:52:37] Matt S. Crowder: Correct. [00:52:37] Dan Smigrod: It's not something to mark up. Really, they're going to mark up their design services. I think what I'm hearing is two things: 1) is if an architect puts a fixed fee based on an old method, there isn't any reason they presumably couldn't do that, if they charge a fixed fee for saying, well, we'll do the "as-built" but we'll charge X dollars for it, or 2) they can engage Immersaf Media, your company, and get the project. Let's use those example numbers and a third of the time for, help me out on the cost that was an estimate of. [00:53:27] Matt S. Crowder: Roughly a third of the cost as well. [00:53:28] Dan Smigrod: It's roughly one third the cost and one third the time, and if they went to bill you out as a line item at cost, they could still do that and it'll just reduce the total cost of what their fee is going to be to maybe win the project. But I'm still a little lost. Do they engage you before they actually have the commission on the project? [00:53:58] Matt S. Crowder: They typically engage me to get a proposal for me to add to their proposal? [00:54:06] Dan Smigrod: You may be proposing, and now it's hurry up and wait, and you've got to find out whether they get the business or not? [00:54:12] Matt S. Crowder: Yes. [00:54:14] Dan Smigrod: Of course they could always plus you up if that's what their plan was. Gee, we've covered so much during the show today, is there a workflow that we haven't discussed? [00:54:35] Matt S. Crowder: Not that I can think of. I go around, I do the tour, I create the walkthrough just like any other Matterport tour, I download the scans, I register them myself in the software, which I can show you what that looks like if you're curious. [00:54:48] Dan Smigrod: Sure. Yeah. I'd love to do that. [00:54:50] Matt S. Crowder: Let me share that screen again, and then let me find the software. [00:54:57] Dan Smigrod: Incidentally, let me just let our listeners know if you want to see some of the examples that Matt is showing and telling us about, he has sent us the Matterport tour. It's in the We Get Around Network Forum, he has sent us the point cloud. It's in that We Get Around Network Forum posts. Again, just go to www.WGANForum.com ... Go to the search box. Search for, in the subject line of the posts: Architects BLK360 WGAN and then it'll pop up. What are we looking at? [00:55:38] Matt S. Crowder: Each one of these dots is a scan point, just like you would see on the Matterport, and each one of these lines is a link where those two scans have been stitched together. Now, I used the automated stitch function for a lot of the interior, which is why you see a bunch of lines because it will connect to as many points as it possibly can. But if I were to click on one of these and go to one of these options down here at the bottom, you can actually zoom in to the point cloud itself. [00:56:12] Dan Smigrod: Which software are you in? [00:56:14] Matt S. Crowder: This is the Leica REGISTER 360 BLK Edition. [00:56:18] Dan Smigrod: Great. [00:56:20] Matt S. Crowder: These are all the different scan points and how they are linked together. To give you an example of what that looks like, I'll actually remove one of the links here. Let me take this one. I'm going to delete this link, and you see how it broke the model. I'm going to delete this link and now this particular setup is completely separate from the rest. I just go back down here, I can select these. [00:56:55] Dan Smigrod: How did you know it goes there? [00:56:58] Matt S. Crowder: First of all, they're all numbered. A lot of times I'll pull up the Matterport Capture app and look to see the different numbered scans, so I can look at the different numbered scans on here and now, "Hey. This one goes here." [00:57:11] Dan Smigrod: But if you weren't using the Matterport Capture app and so you don't have the tour automatically assembled for you, let's say your client just needs the scan data, you're just using the BLK360, is it just you're keeping track, like I scan in order and therefore scan 25 comes after 26 but before 24? [00:57:36] Matt S. Crowder: Mostly. But you can also go down into the actual scan and see the 360 panorama as well. If you've been to the building and you remember the building that can help you too. The idea is you match these up like a puzzle. That's the top-down view. You can also look at the side view and make sure that that's correct as well. Join and optimize and it pops out a scenario where those two match up with a 70 percent overlap. That's good. [00:58:07] Dan Smigrod: Does the software actually do the final registering for you just as long as you get close enough? [00:58:14] Matt S. Crowder: For most part, yeah. Sometimes you have to clean up some of the points like trees and bushes when the winds blowing mess things up but you can clean those out and then re-register it. [00:58:30] Dan Smigrod: You're in Indianapolis, Indiana, I can imagine that there's an architect watching the show today and they go, "Wow, Matt, that was awesome. Do you travel? [00:58:42] Matt S. Crowder: Yes I do, if the money is right. [00:58:49] Dan Smigrod: If they're not necessarily wanting to travel you, but they either have a Matterport Pro2 3D camera and either buy a BLK360, or I can direct them to a Member of the WGAN community that rents BLK360 cameras/scanners. If they do the scanning, can they then put all this in a Dropbox and have you do the registering and the output and the workflow post production? [00:59:21] Matt S. Crowder: I have done that for people before, yes. [00:59:26] Dan Smigrod: Imagine that We Get Around Network which we operate as a Referral Network, we could always connect you, Matt, with another BLK360 operator so that your client doesn't necessarily have to go locate all these people and coordinate, so we can certainly help you out with that. Consulting. I can imagine "I'm an architect"... Or, I'm at another kind of company, "I'm an engineer, "I work in construction"... whatever you just took us through, I get it. It's awesome. Buying the BLK360 is not a problem. Buying the Leica Cyclone REGISTER 360 BLK Edition... But I need training. Does the Immersaf Media offer training? [01:00:27] Matt S. Crowder: That's definitely something I'm willing to do to be helpful. Absolutely. It's not something I advertised that I do, but yeah, I can do that. It's one of the reasons I joined the We Get Around Network. Number 1) I can reach out to people when I need help and of course I'm there to help them as well. [01:00:40] Dan Smigrod: Awesome. Matt, before we say, "bye"... Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to talk about today? [01:00:48] Matt S. Crowder: No, we went through quite a bit. [01:00:50] Dan Smigrod: Awesome. Matt, your website, www.Immersaf.com | Immersaf Media www.Immersaf.com In the We Get Around Network Forum: @MattSCrowder Matt, I'm so thankful for you that you've been on the show today. Thanks so much! [01:01:22] Matt S. Crowder: Thank you, Dan. I appreciate the invitation. [01:01:24] Dan Smigrod: We've been visiting with Matt Crowder Principal at Immersaf Media based in Indianapolis, Indiana. For Matt, I'm Dan Smigrod, Founder of the We Get Around Network Forum, and you've been watching WGAN-TV Live at 5. |
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WGAN Forum Founder & WGAN-TV Podcast Host Atlanta, Georgia |
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| Video: Matterport: The Silver Lining of the Pandemic & Beyond | Video courtesy of JPT Architects, P.C. YouTube channel | 21 February 2022 Hi All, Building on @MattSCrowder insight ... This video (above) from an architecture firm in the health care space helps communicate the benefits of Matterport from an architect's perspective. Your thoughts? Dan |
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| Thank you for posting Dan. I wonder how Matt got those aerial scan views. I've never seen this before now. Is that a BLK360 function? https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=9FRxEZNuCvj&sr=-1.42%2C1.41&ss=37 Please advise, Aaron Rice |
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 WGAN PremiumMember Indianapolis, Indiana |
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| Hi Aaron, If you are talking about the higher scans on the basketball court, I used a 12' light stand. |
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| What a great broadcast, I learned so much. Thanks Matt for all the great insight into the industry. | ||
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